It’s simply outrageous to see that the developers were “pleased” with enh talent tree
The whole spec talent tree is so bloating and useless
stormstrike does only physical damage
doomwind was supposed to be the core mechanics of enh yet they just throw it off with no subsequencing improvement talents and nerfed it to crap
Lava lash is a no good ability which needs 7 POINTS in total to buff it! and lashing flame is just mentally toxic to play
EVERYBODY HATES PRIMORDIAL WAVE
and while we have “improved maelstrom weapon” which makes it stack to 10, the stupid UI was never updated and all enh playes would need an addon for it in order to properly play this spec… Has ANY spec having their own CORE mechanics being so paltered with like that???
Also. ice strike and hailstorm buffs to ice shock have NEVER being implanted into the basic class UI
Isnt that laziness in class design telling anything about the attitude of BLZ to enh?
Are we some sort of leftover last minute job for them???
And these guys DARE to say that they are pleased with enh talent tree and class design?
They didnt bring back Shamanistic Rage for our defensive, but Im definitely getting my offensive shamnistic RAGE now
In a thread i made i said blizz would delete shaman if it didn’t break the game or cause a potential problem. Look at dragonflight primalists? Who do they send to fight them? Mages, cause i guess they can conjure ice and fire so its good enough the story tellers think.
FFS throw Flury in as a base spec skill. I need that point like for real. I’m glad we got Feral Lunge and got rid of WF totem but common now take that ugly thing out and leave it be if this is all we are doing for ENH now.
Losing 1 pt is annoying, just make it baseline the existing builds only lose out on this change, though windfury being a buff and feral lunge are appreciated.
In general i thought enhances 2 builds were well liked, this isnt just whining to get more stuff is it?
My main suggestion outside of a full rework and wishlisting is simply changing flame shock from refreshing and being spread by lava lash to being aoe baseline.
The spread mechanic is interesting but clunky and makes flame shock a dead keybind outside of its first application.
Either that or make lava lash just apply flameshock in aoe
If flame shock keybind stays make it a part of the rotation, if its not part of the rotation remove it. Its a perfect example of button bloat, adds no complexity or nuance to the rotation it just exists to waste a keybind.
Most Enhancement players have a preference for build over another for different reasons. The builds are very different after all.
They do need to make Lava Lash spread to 5 target’s vs 4 and I hope that change does come.
However I’m going to say they wouldn’t make Lava Lash apply and spread Flameshock for “Blizzard” reasons given they do this fun thing where they’ll stick some upfront damage on a damage CD to justify it on GCD when that actively reduces it’s effectiveness. This is why Doom Winds is on the GCD when it should be off of it.
Ignoring the fact they would have to make it a talent point option in the class tree since it is a spell acquired before level 10 (which would be awful), Flameshock is important for it to be a unique button. A button is as useful as you make it and pretty much unless you are doing early progress raiding for Mythic or +15 keys and higher you’re not incentivized to learn complex nuances of an ability/button and how it works with other aspects of a spec’s entire kit in various Raid Fights and Dungeons. This concept also applies to a lot of other things people point to as button bloat like Ice Strike + Frost Shock and needing to hit Lightning Bolt after Pwave instead of the button press just firing the extra Lighting Bolts. There’s other specifics reasons why you would still want Flameshock to exist as its own button even if they made Lava Lash apply Flameshock and spreads it.
I’d give an example but it would require a complex explanation and looking at a couple of things from WarcraftLogs to explain it and I’d rather not write a whole lot unless somebody is actually interested and would read it.
Not every mechanical function needs to be a talent, they can add as many passive talents as they want to the spec baseline as something learned by level up and if they want it to be optional add it to the tree and make one of the mandatory talents baseline.
Just because a situation exists where something can be used it doesnt mean its existence is justified.
I will say my prefered solution to flame shock is removing lava lashes spread mechanic and making flame shock aoe baseline as that removes very little while making it much smoother. Id also like a talent where lava lash causes all flame shocks to ignite and deal bonus damage keeping the synergy while removing the clunkiness.
The value of flame shock applying to just one target is frankly such low value over having a smoother spec, id much rather it function like sunfire. And make the ability worth its keybind.
I agree that frost shock is bloat but i think frost strike is one of the better parts of the kit i wish they gave it more supporting talents, hailstorm has felt great imo, its more a problem with the other skills becoming so spammy and taking too many gcds.
This would honestly be worse for the whole of the spec and break its fluidity. This would effectively require you to press it even more frequently if it is a fight where targets spawn in the middle of the fight, targets spawn far away and come into melee, and flame shock targets die in a 6+ target pull. Examine this change with the on the 2nd boss of Uldaman: you quite literally would need to manually press flame shock every single time adds spawn and would need to time it perfectly to avoid missing one or more of them resulting in more GCD presses versus now you just hit your stuff and MAYBE you sometimes need to target one and Flameshock. You’d take a button you situationally hit every now and make so you have to hit it significantly where it is likely going to conflict with many other aspect of the whole rotation. Not to mention needing to hit to refresh the dot on single target fights; quite literally adding GCDs to a rotation that you state has other skills that are spammy and take too many GCDs.
Also, I do not understand why you consider Flame Shock as it is now as a button bloat since you’re advocating for it to be a mandatory button. Your change requires the same amount of bind you had as before. If you’re willing to make it a mandatory button to be hit highly frequently then its a non-issue that it’s on your bars now in the form where it is more situational in its use and does not disrupt the rotation.
If you’re referring to the action bloat of getting Flameshock on to 6 targets for Pwave cleave, literally all that needs to happen is Motlon Assualt just gets changes to make Lava Lash spread to 5 targets instead of 4. I am also an advocate they should do that AND have Primordial Wave apply Flameshock to the target and 5 others. But Flameshock would still be its own button even then because it has other use.
Best part about Enhance that I love is that once you get really familiar with how the spec works you can take all these seemingly disjointed things and connect them to do some pretty crazy stuff, either planning or sometimes on the fly.
The tech I’m talking is regular high-end skill expression regularly done in M+ and in pretty much every mythic fight that has adds or multi-target fight where your targets are spread like Council of Dreams or 2nd boss of Everbloom. This tech is literally why Enhancement was the best DPS class Mythic Sark without even needing PI and made it mandatory on most bosses.
So basically AoE Lashing Flames.
You misunderstood me. I don’t think Shaman has button bloat as in having too many buttons. Based on what I’ve tested on beta I think it has action bloat like needing a lot of GCDs to do things (Pwave opener on 6 targets) but solutions are more often than not tiny tweak like just making Lava Lash spread to 5.
Honestly. I feel like theres a gap in player knowledge when it comes to getting the fluidity of elemental enhance down.
Once i parked myself at the training dummy and practiced it, it became second nature and i no longer hated pwave.
I still hate the animation though lol.
Same with frost shock cleaving. I went from hating it to actually enjoying the principal of it. My biggest gripe is having to adjust to stormstrike being like last on the radar in terms of priority when for years ive smashed that with fury
I love the Enhancement playstyle. However, the UI definitely could use some love. Its impossible to play it optimally without weakaura to track maelstrom weapon for example. But the weakaura solution is very easy to implement so whatever.
[quote=“Yeastyholes-moon-guard, post:10, topic:1887107”]
This would honestly be worse for the whole of the spec and break its fluidity. This would effectively require you to press it even more frequently [/quote]
Yes.
If a button is on my bar it should be pressed more than once per battle, if it exists to be used once per battle then its bloat and should be made passive. Its one gcd every 18s to tie the ability into the kit.
Admittedly there are areas that this is a functionality nerf, so maybe lava lash still spreads it but it doesnt refresh it. You have all the functionality currently but flame shock is a more active part of your rotation, which imo if its a keybind it absolutely should be.
That or just make lava lash apply it in aoe all the time and you still have flame shock but you dont need to bind it. Its just in such a crappy state as a button and these things really bother me.
Dont get me wrong, im not advocating removing keybinds or abilities, i like complex rotations but each button needs to have value, flame shock takes a keybind and has extremely low button value, you press it once, it doesnt even deserve to be on your main bar but you still need to press it.
Thats bloat, its bad functionality, it should be revised. Either make it worth more than 1 press per battle or make it passive.
Its the same concept as windfury totem, its extremely low button value, its a button for the sake of a button and an effect they could have applied in a far better way, and they did.
not what i was thinking, i was thinking more instant damage so you have some instant gratification and you get a little fire spurt animation on all flame shock targets to really feel good.
(I really want an aoe rework for enh regardless since i hate crash lightning. Id like to see chain lightning cast a proper lightning shield on the shaman for storm aoe, lava lash ignite flame shocks for fire aoe (and fire nova i guess) and hailstorm is pretty cool for frost, sunder is good for earth.
Its just another lazy “make your single target aoe” skill that every class seems to be getting and it doesnt change your rotation at all, which my suggestions dont either but its all passive and would look cool. )
everything in parentheses is wishlisting so ignore if you please
Well my idea to make flame shock apply in aoe applies to primordial wave too. PW > LB would feel good, there isnt any need to add in a lava lash, its already 2 buttons to do what many other cooldowns do in one.
Id like to see more slower tempo talents, more CDR on every skill on every talent can lead to problems, talents like overflowing maelstrom on the other hand are fantastic for giving players more control over their build. Higher resource cost for freed up GCDs, if your spec is GCD locked then its a dps gain even if the talent itself offers no bonus to DPS. There are times of resource overflow that can just feel like you are spilling your cup constantly with these builds.
That’s still pretty rough though for the rotation. Elementatlist has a lot going on but there a thing of having too much stuff going on. It’s pretty much fine on its own and it has uses.
It is designed where it Flameshocks and grants 10 MSW on press but the cleave only happens after you Lightning Bolt with the buff still active is one of the best things about Pwave. You can leverage that in a large amount of ways which is why I find Flameshock to be mandatory. The actual optimal use of Pwave in a lot of cases is hitting it on CD but if you need to save the bolt cleave for adds that are gonna spawn you spend with Elemental Blast and just build back up and play around that.
Part of the reason they changed it so you can’t cast it on yourself was because in Season 2 on Mythic Sark you would utilize that to align it properly for phases and prep burst windows since phases were time-based not health-based. Intermision into P2 you’d Pwave yourself between 2:05 - 2:08 while in the ghost realm grabbing swirls and haste orbs, grab your last white swirl to come up at 2:08, drop WFT then target Sark to Wolves > Flameshock > Elemental Blast > Ice Strike > Stormstrike > and only Lava Lash with Hot Hands till the small add and the Mythic add spawn. You’d then target the Mythic add the moment it came up and Flameshock > Lava Lash > Sundering (proc Tier Set)> Lightning Bolt (consumes Pwave and bolt cleaves) > Frost Shock and then continue on the rotation. Pwave then basically had its 45-second cd aligned with all the add spawns to funnel the Mythic add and Sark for P2.
All that only occurred because Flameshock is its own thing and all the abilities OP complained about the way they are. You do the above in some manner or form in pretty much any Raid boss that spawns adds at a certain timer and if you can figure this out on the fly in M+ it ends up being very lucrative. Again a a button’s usefulness is determined by the user more so than people realize.
I hated this spec until it clicked, now I love it.
This seems like an overeaction. In your post I didn’t see a single thing that would lead me to think blizz wants to get rid of enhance
I don’t know what this means. Enhance has been meta for awhile now and every mythic guild wants one. I know this means nothing to most players but the forums care deeply about what mythic guilds are bringing for some reason
So? if the ability is tuned well, it could do arcane damage for all I care
This is fair, doomwinds has fallen off. From what I remember a lot of people were unhappy with that playstyle in SL. Maybe its time to bring it back
Isn’t lava lash the core ability for one of enhances builds? That’s hardly a no good ability. You are 100% allowed to dislike it, but that doesn’t mean its a bad ability
if everybody hated it, it would be gone. Ele players said the same about the lava burst spam build, and it won the tier set vote by a landslide. It’s better to not say things like that when you have only the opinions in your circle to go off of
You mention a few UI things and I agree with you there, but come on man. That’s very minor stuff.
Would it be nice if they did it? of course!
is it a sign that they dislike enhance as a spec if they don’t? no
Yeah, I agree with Redrik on most fronts. Let’s pretend that no class changes have been announced for anyone… what were the pain points?
Only Enhancement has a raid buff - this has been fixed
Shamans are squishy - this has been buffed
Outside of that, the players that I tend to see that say “Enhancement has too much button bloat” are often those who can’t perform well when using the elementalist build… but, there’s a bit more to that: At the moment, Enhancement is hard-locked into elementalist and is falling behind in M+ primarily due to the 6 target cap… so I think this adds to the frustration and creates a masque that elementalist is awful when it’s actually the target cap that makes it feel unrewarding… something that ‘Totemic’ (and ‘Stormbringer’) is aiming to fix. To go along with this, people tend to enjoy specs that can top the meters when basically pressing 1x key like the old Demon Hunters and current Ret Paladins… they like the flavor of Enhancement but want it to fit their design goals. The Stormstrike build is that simple option for that player base… so let’s not get that confused.
For Elemental, people have been complaining that our spenders feel too weak. I’ll agree that ‘Earth Shock’ could hit a bit harder but ‘Earthquake’ hasn’t been nerfed this expansion (to my knowledge) and was absolutely cracked in Season 2 because our tier set enabled the lightning build - something that players, for some reason, voted against. Opting for the ‘Lava Burst’ build mostly capped Elemental at 6x targets while ‘Earthquake’ is capped at 20x; In the current season, you’ll notice that Elemental only really shines when mobs live long enough for ‘Earthquake’ damage to climb, an ability that the ‘Lava Burst’ build doesn’t really invest in.
When it comes to the number of 2-point talents, everyone would like fewer 2-point nodes… absolutely - It would be nice to have a couple of swing points but being locked into a specific, cookie-cutter build has treated us well for pretty much all of DF… we haven’t significantly suffered by not being able to access certain talents.
I think that most players see other classes getting huge reworks and inherently think that everyone should receive massive changes when that’s not always needed. I’m not saying that Elemental and Enhancement couldn’t use some tweaks or specific talent reworks or buffs, they definitely can. But, to doom by saying the class is dead because it doesn’t fit some particular player’s design narrative really isn’t valid.
Blizzard did state that Shaman will receive additional class changes in a future patch - something that they didn’t state for other classes. While this might be frustrating in the short-term, try to keep an open mind instead of losing your sanity over the first build of the new Shaman changes - we still have like 6 weeks before the expansion launches; some classes will continue to receive changes and tweaks through the duration of pre-patch.
If I had to choose, I’d want Blizzard to free up 2-3x 2-point nodes for some slight Enhancement talent flexibility on top of buffing ‘Windfury/Doomwinds’ as well as allowing ‘Stormstrike’ to apply ‘Lightning Rod’… they could also revisit the ‘Totemic’ tree as that seems to be catering to too much instead of something that’s actually defined. For Ele, they need to shift some of the talents around and revert the Maelstrom generation nerf and make ‘Farseer’ more interesting. The class tree also needs some tweaking as requiring things like ‘Spiritwalker’s Grace’ in order to pick up ‘Ancestral Guidance’ feels pretty terrible.
BUT! The thing we REALLY need is that Shaman tank spec
Don’t flame me but… I don’t hate it? Only because super juiced LB cleave is so satisfying. Why is there all this hate for PWave?
I’d prefer some depth to a SS/lightning build. Elementalist build is super satisfying to play, but I get that high apm throws people off. Still, SS doing actual stormstrike damage would be nice especially when mountain thane warriors are getting it lol.
For me doomwinds got real old real fast in shadowlands, but I guess if they worked it to be more fun it’d be worth it
Is it? Idk if its just me but tab target lashing flame isn’t that bad honestly, would you rather it just auto apply to multiple targets via 1LL press?
I feel like alot of people seem to really want to dumb the spec down
Yes, yes we are. They say we are “fine” meanwhile warlocks and mages getting reworks and updates galore lol.
I’m dangerously close to putting my shaman back on the shelf because of how good warlock, spriest, mage and heck even monks + DKs are looking
Thing is that people over estimate mass aoe capabilities especially in dungeons like BH, RLP, and AA. Filter out damage to lashers in AA and BH and enhance is comparable to pretty much most classes overall. Even so, with our funnel profile trying to pump overall damage aoe damage is incredibly inefficient as you can help your group better funneling EB’s into Arcane Ravagers or the Books in AA. It doesn’t look pretty on overall but most high end players don’t care about overall. Pug community sentiments and fixations DPS meters ofc do play a part.
In raid, Elementalist’s damage profile was only valued provided you can leverage all its working part. It’s why all suggestions about “button bloat” would basically kill the build because those parts of skill expression is quite literally a 30-40% dps difference. Strom’s issue is that in order to complete a simplistic style for players it only functions in single target scenarios where CD management isn’t valued because your damage in a fight is determined by “lmao lucky ducky” RNG. So taking Amirdrasil it would only function on Volcoross and technically Smoulderon but the damage is so inconsistent that on progress you’d just going to want to bench that player for somebody who has a consistent damage profile…or have them play Elementalist. If we had Skyfury totem back in Season 2 you’d literally never bring an Enhance Shaman to any fight except Mythic Echo and Mythic Sarkarth because Storms damage profile is quite literally forgettable and inconsistent on fights you were able to play it on where as Elementalist is quite literally the best DPS spec on those fights provided you are able to leverage the fact that Pwave generates 10 MSW and doesn’t do its cleave until you cast LB or that Ice Strike empowers your next Frost Shock.
But again, most players who are complaining about Elementalist are playing in content where it quite literally doesn’t matter what you play.
Yeah, I think you nailed it right on the head. I do think that Season 1 is a huge gamble as Blizzard is hoping that players will choose builds that they enjoy instead of what’s mathematically “best”. I’d assume that when Season 2 rolls around, we’ll have a much more defined look as to what our real role as Shamans are in TWW (especially since we’ll be getting a tank spec and legendary ).
It’s one of those talents that you honestly pick it because of the talents after it. Ten stacks of Maelstrom Weapon and a haste buff for every mob hit by the Wave’s Lightning Bolt.
