“The community today is so different from what the community was back in 2007 that it had us take a different philosophy with Burning Crusade, where we actually started to allow ourselves to make some changes that were in the best interests of the players that will continue to develop alongside the community.”
-Patrick Dawson
I’m not quoting the quote again - read post above mine.
In some areas yes, but in this one, I don’t think so. None of the concerns raised on this topic now are different to those raised when it was argued about 14 years ago. Not one. Having said that I don’t think the devs of the day properly answered the pvp side of it and that remains open to this day.
Which is exactly how we know that they’re unfounded, all the fear mongering done then about how dual spec was awful ended up being garbage.
You keep arguing this as if WoTLK and TBC were identical games, they weren’t. Google the patch notes for the WoTLK patches there were loads of changes - it’s not a like for like comparison. They literally made specs less niche which directly impacts on features like Dual spec for PVE.
Also - I’m suggesting it has some downsides in PVE - that’s not fear mongering. I’m not saying the game will implode. But I happen to think that risky changes should be left out of the game. A pvp spec is not risky as the PVP game is very self contained. But there’s a lot more “moving parts” to consider for a game wide dual spec.
Okay, so they allowed themselves to make some changes. No need to allow themselves to make any more, IMO. The game is great as is.
One of the things I was stoked about after the first announcement was the idea of the forever realms.
If I wanted to play 60 wow, I can jump in and play that. If I wanted to play 70 wow, I can jump in and play that. I wasnt the biggest fan of Wrath and I wouldnt go no further than that even if Blizz did but heck, Id probably have at least one 80 toon there.
And the idea that I could do it all 5 years from now. Dual specs would ruin TBC for me if were to ever happen across the whole of TBC instead of a server(s) set aside for people who want that kind of stuff.
You keep arguing that TBC and TBCC are identical games, they aren’t.
No I don’t. I just don’t share your cavalier attitude to spinning up game changes.
If I were a TBCC game developer I wouldn’t be doing all my feature testing on a WoTLK client and deeming that acceptable.
Dang this thread gained a lot of sweat since this morning. They all woke up about noon and got on the forums lawwwwl.
BTW we’re actually on a much later client than WotLK.
And it’s still not a WOTLK client.
I’m not against the OPs point, but this idea that a simple copy paste from WoTLK will be absolutely risk free because the games are basically the same - well it defies common sense in my view. A quick read of the patch notes for the WoTLK pre patch and release patch puts that to bed. It contains lengthy changes to talents and talent positioning, baseline abilities, grouping … there’s no way you can reasonably just assume that a feature being okay in WoTLK (it wasn’t without issues btw) is proof that it will be fine in TBCC.
My argument is that changes should be well targeted and minimise risk to the overall game cohesion. The least amount of change in the least amount of scope to solve the problem. All changes carry risks.
I can very easily assume that a well defined feature will work just fine in TBC.
There’s nothing about TBC that changes why people want dual spec. Which shockingly makes sense as the reasons it was decided to add it were reasons that existed in wait for it TBC, not new problems introduced in wrath.
There’s plenty of “well defined features”, not just in WoTLK why not take the best from every expansion - since we can assume that you can apply them to any other version without risk?
The feature being well defined is one thing but the scope has to be as well. Heck Blizzard even struggles to put in balanced updates for content that was actually made for this generation of the game …
WoTLK is not a good test bed for features you want in TBCC - period. It’s way too different.
Feel free to go through a list of features and we can discuss them one by one.
Some would be fine, some not so much so. Just like how dual spec is fine outside the context of #nochanges.
Okay would you like me to unit test them all for you as well?
Common - your assumption that WoTLK and TBCC are basically identical games and that features are transferable from each is just wrong. I’m not going to spend an hour writing up something that proves that to be the case when it’s such a self evident thing.
Actually that’s not what I said, I don’t take all or nothing approaches like #nochanges. Which is why I’ve never claimed wrath is the same game as TBC. But it’s silly to take your approach and claim wrath is 100% different than TBC when in fact there’s a ton of over lap.
So yeah there’s nothing to unit test, dual spec works in a very specific way that has nothing to do with anything specific to wrath and as such it’s very easy to see what impact it might have in TBC Classic.a
And this is another thing. You consistently and knowingly misrepresent my position as being a supporter of #nochanges - you do so even after I explicitly claim that I am not. Even when I directly call that out as a strawman. I can only assume at this point that you are intentionally misrepresenting my position to aid your cause.
You’re not interested in honest discussion or compromise if you are continually and knowingly straw manning my position as #nochanges. You’re simply campaigning for your WoTLK buff and using every trick in the book.
I clearly support a number of changes - relevant to this topic I support the inlcusion of an arena/instanced PVP spec.
Right so you don’t get to use #nochanges as an argument against dual spec if you are in fact fine with a similar change.
And you conveniently also ignored that you are pretending that wrath and TBC are somehow completely different. When the reality is that they are quite similar, which is partly how it’s very easy to tell what impact dual would have in TBC Classic.
There’s no pretence, I do maintain they are very different. And that WoTLK is not a like comparison with TBCC. Features from WoTLK are not automatically interchangeable in TBCC. You can’t simply claim “I reckon this worked in WoTLK so we should just put it into TBCC as they’ll be no risk”.
Then you should be able to explain exactly how wrath is so different than TBC, given we know how exactly both of them work, that dual spec would have a completely unpredictable impact on TBC Classic given we also know exactly how dual spec works.