Exactly, thank you. They’re different games that cater to different audiences that want to do different things.
I’m not saying that Ultimates aren’t challenging. I’m just saying that they are less challenging than Mythic end bosses in WoW.
If you needed to squeeze out every possible drop of DPS, like you regularly do in mythic raids and high keys, you’d need tools to evaluate and assess your performance. Those tools are against the rules in FF. Ergo, since the content still dies, obviously, there must not be DPS checks in the same way that there are in WoW.
Plus if you can play it with a controller in a raid setting, it’s probably just easier all around. FF is a more casual game. And that’s fine. I know plenty of people that play it because it’s a more casual game. But that’s not WoW–at least not when you’re talking about something that touches every area of the game, like a new role, class, or spec.
Then why I am I playing both? Am I two different people?
On paper, but not in spirit. The rule exists to prevent you from weaponizing that information in a toxic manner. Even the developers themselves use certain tools to parse and otherwise assist. The point is, you don’t talk about it or advertise your usage, particularly in-game.
I know people that push keys and raid Mythic with their SteamDeck and heavily customized UI. It’s not fundamentally different. There is some residual “PC Master Race” energy here.
The DPS checks in FFXIV endgame content are infinitely more strict than they are in WoW. That’s part of the reason they’re so lax with the rules on the battle rezzes - if someone dies in this content, odds are, you’re not clearing. And if you’re in a PUG and not doing well on the charts? The only difference is that you’re being removed from the group without a snide comment.
But all of this is neither here nor there: my point remains. FFXIV’s support classes are much more limited than WoW’s support abilities. Ergo, adding a support class to WoW in the vein of FFXIV’s iteration on the role would be less impactful that adding Bloodlust to another class. All they do is snip off the tip of one person’s DPS meter and add it to another (or dispersed across a few). Enhancement Shamans, as they are now, can make more of an impact with their support abilities than that.
I knew a guy in Molten Core who would wear a pirate hat (before transmog) during raid. It had no stats, but he liked the look.
Today, could you imagine someone doing that?
I think the nostalgia factor may be bigger than the reality. I loved WOTLK for example, but when I went back to play Wrath Classic, I was aghast to remember all the god-awful things about the game.
I suspect that you’d feel differently about this if it was resurected in modern wow.
From the looks of things, you’ve done more FF ultimates and I’ve done more mythic wow raiding. We probably aren’t qualified to compare them like-to-like.
You can like two completely different things at the same time. I also like Rocket League, but that doesn’t mean I want soccer cars in Stormwind.
Cheating is cheating, even if you don’t get caught. There has been enough controversy about WoW streamers that have tried FF using any form of an addon to know that the community at large is not in universal agreement with this.
I’m not saying everyone does use a controller, just that you can. That wouldn’t work in WoW for anything more complex than a 5-man, and even then it’s deeply suboptimal.
Infinite battle rezzes would absolutely trivialize most wow content. I don’t think you can really say that the DPS check is meaningful if the fight allows you to just play badly and get rezzed and try again without having to start over.
It certainly would have been interesting to see those roles evolve over twenty years. I think that’s what people are getting wrong about the role - no one wants to “go back” to what it was like with support classes upon release. We want to see it modernized. Just like damage dealers, healers, and tanks were. Just as they are unrecognizable from their origins, so too should be that support spec.
Feel free to look at the commentary of people that have done both, though. It’s quite interesting. There’s a specific WoW guild that had a rude awakening when they assumed they were going to snap up the Ultimate World First like nothing…
Except it does. Again, preconceived notions at play here.
It would. And that’s my point. The DPS checks are so prevalent and tight in FFXIV endgame content that they don’t need to be strict with the battle rezzes. Even if you’re getting people up instantly, their damage is debuffed (plus that lost time when dead, getting your CDs out of sync with the group, etc.), and you’re not going to clear the content. And that’s not even for the highest tier content. It applies to current tier Extreme and Savage, which would be roughly equivalent to Heroic.
It would trivialize WoW’s content because WoW’s content is generally much more forgiving, mechanically.
“it’s a core part of what makes WoW WoW,” while we see tank and 4 dps teams doing mythic+ lol.
I don’t think a support role would need balance. The various support skills could be nice if you have them, but not missed if you don’t. ESPECIALLY if they change party composition to tank, healer, dps, dps, support.
I personally would loooove a support class. It’s just my personality. I love classes / roles in games where i can boost and support my fellow players. (Like Bard or Astrologian in FFXIV)
Yep. I love the subtle influence. Maybe I held onto one button for a DPS check that we barely passed. Maybe I prevent a death here or there. It’s little nuanced moments like that that I enjoy. I am not rewarded by topping the meters. I am rewarded by clearing content, and I am required to pay attention to the flow of the fight and the performance of my group to operate optimally.
Those that equate “healer” with this role simply don’t understand the MMO definition of the word “support.” They insist on the dictionary definition. Yet I doubt they’d take issue with terms like “roll,” “mob,” or “tank.”
it is a lot riding on linguistics lol. I understand “specialization” has a specific use in WoW, but we don’t always articulate ourselves the best. I’m going to laugh if it’s some roleplay situation for dracthyr, or they get to pick which flight to join or something out of left field.
You get it, Friend I’m the exact same. Those are the moments were i feel like i’m truly contributing, and no, it can’t be found on the meters, but we all know what I what I did and what I was doing that contributed to the clear. And then people start fighting over the buffs you are giving out bc they want to see their damage go up. Or saving a life as the healer is busy, etc. Those are the moments that really make a game for me. Not topping Details.
Some people cannot handle change or in this case reverting back. There is utility and then there is abilities that are considered actual support. As mentioned, Shaman and Paladin mimicked support. Other classes such as Warlock mimicked Necromancers from EQ, with a slew of abilities that would be considered support but they could also do great damage.
Than I just read about min/maxing is nothing compared to WoW. Well I remember the removal of +hit, AP, etc. Jeff wanted less min/maxing. It turned out what they really wanted was a player to raid. There is more min/maxing now then there was in the past.
Support is my favorite style of play, I always seem to move toward that play style in other games. Issue once people are geared you are less likely to be selected. They can now out live and do the damage to defeat the encounter without the need of crowd control/buffs.
WoW has failed to develop certain specs… I think some serious changes do need to be made but please no more mistakes like melee survival. Sorry but I think explosive shot was a good idea when first released.
-edit let me iterate melee survival, when WoW first released I rolled a hunter and I was survival but not by choice. The other specs had major issues and I believe it was a few patches later they were repaired. It was to late, I already rerolled Shaman.
My point is that you’re being a traditionalist. “It can’t be X way because it’s never been X way.”
Well, yes. But have some imagination. Games evolve and change. Just bc you’re limited in your sight doesn’t mean others are. Perhaps they have conceived of Support Roles in a way you just haven’t yet imagined. And it truly bothers me that your only argument against even TRYING it is, “This is the way it’s always been done.”
Fwiw though, i don’t think support roles are coming. So in the end you’ll win out anyways. We will keep on doing the same thing we’ve been doing for 20 years and calling it progress lol.
It’s my favorite playstyle too. I main shaman in no small part because i feel like i’m contributing in ways outside of dps.
Perhaps, if support roles ever did come, they would re-imagine the dps roles that are just consistently falling behind or too hard to balance or kinda lost in the sauce.
The issue will always be the Holy Trinity. Once people become geared they can usually forgo the support class. Than people get upset if a specific class / spec is needed or not needed… It is no different than tank/healer/dps. You will just have to have people willing to offspec to it.
Now, I can imagine the headache in PVP but they can fix it like they do any other ability and place a timer on it, DR, or stop the stacking.
I mean, people have been soloing current-tier content for years that requires more players, on paper. If you constantly design around the worst-case, one-in-a-million scenario, you get… well, I suppose you get the last half-decade of WoW. Thankfully, they’re shaking that habit. Or at least trying to.
Even before the launch of BC, Onyxia was 3 man. I remember when a hunter soloed Cthun in BC, causing a nerf to how stats transferred to pets. There will always be that moment in MMOs.
Unless the dungeon paradigm is changed to include a support role. So you can’t exclude it.
In raids of course I’m unsure how that will work. If it were still strictly 10 man or 25 or 40, it might not be an issue.
In any case, as much as I’d love a support role, I don’t see WoW ever doing this haha. It’s a fun thought experiment.
If ffxiv’s combat were in any way fun, I’d just be playing a support like Bard or Dancer in it haha.
I’m the exact same. Those are the moments were i feel like i’m truly contributing, and no, it can’t be found on the meters, but we all know what I what I did and what I was doing that contributed to the clear. And then people start fighting over the buffs you are giving out bc they want to see their damage go up. Or saving a life as the healer is busy, etc. Those are the moments that really make a game for me. Not topping Details.