"Actual" CC changes will make ppl want to PvP

PVP Arenas
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I don’t want to detract from the fact that healing can be very difficult and stressful, but I just don’t see any other way for PvP to work in this game. CC is what separates us from just doing PvE rotations on each other until someone randomly flops over. The more it is reduced the more skill is diminished and just pve’ing each other is rewarded.

What I have said before, and I think was mentioned in this thread, is it would be nice to just make sure all healers have a strong enough toolkit to carry games themselves (i.e. their own cc to stop someone from cc’ing them, or cc/damage to secure a kill, or skillful abilities like 1 sec fade to avoid cc, etc.). At least with that healers would know if they’re losing it’s on them instead of feeling helpless some of the time.

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This is very, very wrong. Those extra actions would mean nothing if you couldn’t do anything. Doing your rotation isn’t skillful. Pressing a heal when your teammates are low isn’t where wow’s skill expression lies. Cc usage alone isn’t even where it lies. It’s positioning, it’s effective trades, it’s avoiding cc and yes, also using it when needed.

If you dumb down cc, you dumb down the game. Cc is annoying to have done to you. 100% agree. But it’s supposed to be. All the more reason to try and avoid it. And don’t lean on the “but it’s instant” argument. I promise you, all you healers just starting to learn the game eat WAY more cc than you should. Way more. Cleaning up your own play will make your own experience better.

No one is just “chilling” there. If they have a glad mount it doesn’t mean they got it on that class or spec and even if they did, the issue as you said is simply being out played yeah?

I very much wish posts like this came with a recorded game of their experience to provide context.

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whatever you say :roll_eyes:

yes, because im a 1800-2k healer going up against people who are 3k xp at 1800 mmr

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So let me get this straight. You think 18-2400+ at the moment is all glad-3k players?

If yes, “lol”

If “ no but I see them sometimes” then it’s a non issue. They too have to go through that bracket. But seeing one once in a while isn’t a gate keep.

226

Addons do half the work for people in this game.

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I remember screaming at the top of my lungs because of the sheer amount of ccs that I was against. Getting disarmed by a hunter then a shammy just punting me around with ccs, hooooooooly cow. I couldn’t move at. All. BUT. Then it happened. HE GOT CLOSE AND WABAM. That shammy got effing obliterated and ate my blades. It only took me seconds to end him. Eff that class.

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Well, I was curious, so…

I’m going to add some empirical data from my reflex of just my last queue session at 1900-2k mmr, 12 games. This is in 3s. Keep in mind check-pvp only goes back to wod, so these counts will be a minimum amount of titles.

I initially had all of their names in this post, but I realized that might be against forum TOS so I removed them.

Game 1: 1862 mmr
Warlock - 1x Glad
Priest - 1x R1* 4x Glad 1x Elite
Rogue - 2x Glad 1x Elite

Game 2: 1901 mmr
DK - Has check-pvp hidden
Rogue - 2x Glad
Priest - 1x Glad 1x Elite

Game 3: 1930 mmr
Warlock - 2x Glad* 1x Elite
Rogue - 3x Glad*
Priest - 3x Glad 1x Elite

Game 4: 1962 mmr
Warlock - 4x Glad
Mage - 3x Glad 1x Elite
Priest - 2x Glad 1x Elite

Game 5: 1985 mmr
Warlock - 1x Elite
Priest - No titles
Monk - 3x Glad*

Game 6: 2011 mmr
Warlock - 6x Glad* 2x Elite
Mage - 3x Elite
Priest - 2x Glad*

Game 7: 1992 mmr
Paladin - 1x R1* 3x Glad 2x Elite
Warlock - 1x R1* 5x Glad
Shaman - 6x Glad*

Game 8: 2018 mmr
Paladin - 1x R1*
Hunter - 5x Glad* 1x Elite
Priest - 1x R1*

Game 9: 1986 mmr
Warlock - 12x Glad*
Rogue - 9x Glad* 1x Elite
Priest - 1x R1 7x Glad

Game 10: 1955 mmr (same team from game 7)
Paladin - 1x R1* 3x Glad 2x Elite
Warlock - 1x R1* 5x Glad
Shaman - 6x Glad*

Game 11: 1982 mmr
Monk - 2x Elite
Hunter - No Titles
Evoker - 1x R1* 1x Elite

Game 12:
Hunter 1x r1 14x glad
Rogue 5x Glad
Druid 3x Glad 1x Elite

*One of these titles was obtained in Crimson season. This is useful because it’s a decent gauge on if someone is “washed” or not.

So, overall, in my small little queue session at that mmr I ran into zero teams without at least 1 gladiator on them. Most teams had multiple. Most glads were multi glads. And quite a lot of r1s.

And, to be completely fair, if you looked at my team it would look the same. But for somebody who is trying to push duelist or hell even 1800 who doesn’t have that kind of experience, it is just a hilariously daunting hard wall to go up against.

And again, this is just a single random session.

I’d say you might be a little off-base if you think it’s crazy to say that most teams at that mmr are glad+ teams.

(P.S. I’m happy to share the Reflex data if anyone feels like I’m just lying about this.)

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229

By “washed” do we mean washed up or carried?

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I’ve never heard washed to mean the same as carried, but yeah I meant washed up.

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Niche use of the term, but a term none-the-less.

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We were talking about shuffle. 3’s at 2k is vastly different.

And if someone is currently at a rating where they are fighting the people you have showcased, does that not mean they must have beaten many of them to get there? If that’s the case, the whole “they’re way better than me” argument kinda becomes moot no?

Edit: it also is worth annotating if these titles were received on the class/spec they’re actively playing.

I mean don’t me wrong, I absolutely know that right now it’s hard to push and you’re not going to see the ratings you’re “used to” at the moment, but the notion that 1800 shuffle is full of 3k players is just wrong.

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233

Ah, I swear I read him talking about 3s. I haven’t done shuffle at all this season so I couldn’t contribute even if I wanted to.

Well, it’s one thing to win and it’s another thing to win consistently enough to push. I also imagine there’s a lower limit where you’re facing “regular” teams and then get into the “insane” team bracket and just keep getting immediately knocked down to the lower bracket.

This is usually fine when that point is a lot higher so the spread is more comfortable to climb, but when that point is like 1800 or something it’s a pretty enormous difference in skill for a relatively small amount of difference in cr.

Yeah after I was done I thought I should’ve put at least 3s xp on the current char too, but that doesn’t take into account alts (of the same class) either. It started turning into too much work for me to care enough, haha. But, it is a valid point for sure.

Yeah, it could be. As I said, I thought this was about 3s and I’m steering pretty far away from shuffle atm. But I’ve heard other people say the same thing about 3s and 2k mmr, so the point isn’t totally lost.

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234

Yeah, nah. He has no 3’s games on the toon in question and low 1800’s in shuffle. Roughly a 1700 3’s player. Which of course isn’t a shame thing by any means. Merely providing perspective.

This is true, and with lower participation and a growing Lu experienced playerbase as a whole, this phenomenon is more common than in recent years. But, my point was more about disproving the extreme; that it’s just every single game and is impossible to play. Like, it’s not full of challengers at 1750 and then 1800 is nothing but AWC. It’s tighter than usual but not that tight.

Understandable :P. Honestly a really cool collective of data anyway. It is kind of showing and it’d be interesting to see a larger sample size across different ratings in different formats. That’d be a very interesting read.

I don’t see this said about 3’s much but I don’t talk to every single player so you could be right. Definitely not a lost point, and again, it’s insightful. Appreciate the leg work. I just don’t buy into that team of blame game when it comes to improving at low ratings.

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235

compared to which real, not made up era of the game?

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For all the people worried about other ppl’s rating…you’ve missed the point. PvP doesn’t belong to just the top rated players. All sorts off ppl PvP. PvP shouldn’t just cater to the elitist if it wants to stay relevant…

…and you should want new ppl getting into the system so eventually you can play new ppl, instead of just the same ol’ comps over and over again. All voices should matter in this debate if you don’t want to watch that player pool dwindle into nothing

237

You’re talking about competitive form of PVP wondering why people are speaking from a competitive outlook.

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All sorts of ppl PvP. Good, bad, etc. It isnt just a system for an elitist few, where only their opinions matter.

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why should us or blizzard even entertain blatantly bad ideas? the rating aspect literally doesn’t matter in this instance. your lack of experience just happens to correlate with your bad idea and may explain why you feel the way you do

i had a relatively healthy discussion with a super casual mage player who only does solo content and random BGs today on the PTR forum

he was arguing that water elemental shouldn’t be removed because of his playstyle. i argued that WE is currently one of, if not the least played choice node talent in the entire game as 98.4% of frost mages take lonely winter according to pvpleaderboards. i imagine that number is higher for keys and raid

his first rebuttal to my argument was him analyzing the screenshot i provided from pvpleaderboards showing the talent tree breakdown for frost mages by showing the % of people across all 4 ladders and both regions that take a given talent

he seemed shocked to learn ray of frost and glacial spike weren’t more popular as he plays them both all the time, and though he didn’t concede that WE should be removed, he seemed to come away from the conversation understanding why it’s on the chopping block to begin with

i tell that story to give an example of someone with zero experience having a bad idea but kind of understanding why the community may think it’s bad after being shown evidence to support why it’s bad

that being said, no one here doesn’t understand that the majority of people who enjoy PvP in this game do wPvP and random BGs. it would be incredibly foolish to not think that… however, blizzard has said on multiple occasions that, for better or for worse, they 100% balance PvP around 3v3 arena which is why RSS exists with a 3v3 format

because of this, any widespread changes to PvP will always be implemented or discussed through the lens of 3v3 arena, and your original suggested changes to CC would simply be abysmal in 3v3, and would actually harm BGs, skirms, 2v2, RBGs, and RSS unless massive, wholesale changes are made to the game

so you expect a PvE game to be completely redesigned from the ground up because… you don’t like sitting CC? don’t worry, i’ll answer that for you- no, you don’t expect that because you didn’t even consider that your suggestions would require that which is why you received so much pushback telling you exactly that in this thread

but, sure, we just dismissed you because of your rating

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240

Here’s the thing, and i know this will come as a shock to someone as arrogant as you but… WoW doesn’t belong to you. The game is for everyone.

Changes are made based on majority thinking. Aka how will this impact the majority? How will changes impact the experience the most players?

If youre at the top youre not the majority. Giving yourself a crown and demanding everyome agree that only your opinion matters is no different than a jester putting on his hat and deciding he is the ruler.

Your just one of thousands. Your opinion matters no more than the person trying to get past 1600. Trolling ppl, mocking them, and acting like their view doesn’t matter changes nothing, in reality.

This game is for everyone, not just the self appointed ‘deciders’, deluded with self importance

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Nothing youre about to say matters. Unless your dev, you’re a nobody, just like me. Just like the person struggling at 1400