I view “laid back” as aiming for time but will stay to the end if possible. These are the groups that at least are not going to be “gogogo” to the extent that someone causes a wipe due to trying to make time. M+ in pugs is a grab bag, sometimes I pull all mobs in a boss area to cover my rear from someone pulling adds during the boss fight; I have done this in the room of the second boss in Underrot and STILL 2 chested a +6.
Laid back should just mean “don’t stress the timer” while still allowing for a run that does not take forever nor cost a lot in deaths.
I’m sure they do. And I’m sure there are quite a few dedicated teams as well. But not the majority of people playing are wanting to get into M+.
If no one pugged there would be no Raider IO. Why would you need to check on a random person if you’re always running with friends?
Just because Ion deflected the question, most likely to avoid committing to any real solution, doesn’t mean that’s the way it is in game. Because it wasn’t meant to be pug’d has no bearing on if it is.
I don’t pug M+. You can look at my io page and see that I run with the same 8-10 guild members every run. We have an active discord with a tab for keys where we can post what keys we have and what time we will be online so we can coordinate a group.
Pretty sure this is the Q&A where Ion said that isn’t the intent behind M+. Yes, you can make pug groups just like everything else because not everyone will want to work with dedicated groups, but that doesn’t mean they will sweep up the rubble after a group crashes and burns because someone left either. It’s in the hands of the players in other words.
Pugging dungeons and raid for a good portion of the beginning of the expansion was a huge strain for my two friends and I. It was so bad on alliance that we went back to an old guild and now we run almost exclusively with guildies to get at least a 10 done every week. Sometimes working out when people can all meet up to do it isn’t easy as we are all busy and have two raid nights, but we make it work. Some weeks we have multiple teams doing M+. If we didn’t have the guild we might have given up on the game at this point.
And you can’t see how this has huge potential for abuse? I’d list them, but other threads have done so probably far better than I could. In fact, this whole thread is spam at this point, everything that is being said has been said hundreds if not thousands of times before. The arguments back and forth are adding nothing new to the conversation.
Being spammable and being able to fail keys with no repercussions would only serve to make m+ even more desirable over raiding for gear progression. That’s what it has to do with this, fyi. I’d like to keep both m+ and raiding as equal as possible, because frankly, it seems like the superior way to gear is by spamming m+. The day that the new raid opened a few weeks ago quite a few of my teammates spent multiple hours before the raid spamming keys for titanforges and i-level 400 gear. Quite a few of them were over i-level 400 on the first day of the raid and before they even stepped a foot in it.
Don’t believe it’s superior? 9 chances a week per difficulty level vs. unlimited chances at heroic level gear and unlimited chances at titanforges. Add to the fact that better gear is more often found in m+ (for example, there is not a single mastery/crit ring in the entire raid), along with the ability to purchase your bis azerite piece, and you have a potentially far superior gearing path.
I don’t even do this content, but as everyone (including Blizzard) has said in the past:
This doesn’t work due to the nature of the Internet.
Also, a subscriber to a service is not a “prisoner.” If they want to leave, they can. This is why your cable provider/Netflix don’t punish you if you stop watching a show.
So you will only have whatever penalty currently exists, for such a purpose (Deserter Debuff? I’d imagine?)
Because if didn’t people would have to use chat like in the olden days to find members? Like I said, it’s not against the rules to pug, but they aren’t working on making M+ like LFR either.
You keep saying that but then you say you won’t actually tell how would people abuse it so… Since I seriously can’t see any major abuse from this I ask you to please explain.
The way I see it is that you still need to finish the dungeon to get loot, so resetting the key and starting over at the same level is going to be less efficient than just finishing it and getting your loot right away then doing another dungeon.
I agree that being spammable makes M+ a strong system in terms of gear progression, for non-azeirte slots is generally better than raiding.
But it’s like that already, making you able to start over (which gives you no loot) and try again at the same level is not going to change anything, specially for low keys (below +10). You still need to finish a dungeon to actually loot the chest, and if you finish it well you get a new key so you can no longer start over and get loot again.
Yeah I did that myself with some other friends, the change I’m proposing would have had exactly zero impact on that since it’s limited to keys below 10.
Yes, it will. It makes it even easier to push them. You can’t see how this would further effect the balance between m+ and raiding?
As for the abuse, again, lots of threads out there if you’re looking for answers. A major one though would be someone pulling everything and continuously wiping the group until you kick them, or breaking cc on purpose, or misdirecting to the healer, or dying on purpose to kill your key timer, etc. Oh, you want to give a penalty to the person being kicked? Well then troll groups would be made specifically to kick people for fun. People are crafty when it comes to finding ingenious ways to circumvent the rules. Never underestimate the ability of people to be jerks for their own amusement.
It will encourage the group to keep trying until they learn the dungeon and perfect their strategy to a point where they are able to push it, what’s wrong with that?
It would make more people take part in M+, which means more players dipping into challenging content, which means more players interesting in Raiding too.
Or maybe you can’t find an argument because there’s no real abuse potential from what I proposed?
No, the first thing I said is that the penalty approach is a terrible idea, did you even read what I wrote?
And what does that have to do with anything I said??, what I’m proposing is precisely under the premise that forcing someone to stay in a group where he doesn’t want to be anymore is a terrible idea.
So the right approach is not to force players to stay but to make it so when one player leaves then it doesn’t ruin the run for all the other 4 players, they can just run out and start over with a new person.
No it wouldn’t. M+ is for people that aren’t looking for a full raiding experience. It’s like raiding lite. Less people needed, less time needed. Not to mention the fact that people that pug M+ are probably not the type to want to join an organized raiding group.
That was a follow up to the statement I made preceding it, I did not intend to imply you said that. Looking back, I can see where I wan’t exactly clear on that. My apologies.
No, what you are proposing is making virtually no penalty for failing a key. The only downside would be the time you already invested. Not to mention the fact that none of this would even be necessary if people would run these the way they are intended to be run in the first place. You chose to pug. You chose the sub-optimal option. Accept the consequences of your choices. Stop asking for Blizzard to fix a problem of your own making. Especially when the best solution is entirely within your own power to implement.
Or maybe I provided the answer right after that statement? Four of them, to be exact. Maybe finish reading the paragraph first?
I did, throughly, still no answer on how allowing a group to start over without depleting the key (for keys under +10) would be abused by players.
And the big upside of encouraging players to have more participation and practice to master their strategy and beat the content is imo a very big upside, does this mean it’s overall easier to push your own key to a +10?, yes it is slightly easier, but what makes it easier is you becoming a better player not the content being dumbed down, is really the same situation that we experience in raids when progressing on a new boss: You fail then you adjust and try again, multiple times if needed, until you beat it (you earn that victory).
At this point I think it’s clear our conversation is not moving forward, perhaps we have very different views so I guess it would be best to agree to disagree. I still believe what I proposed is a great idea and hopefully you at least read it with an open mind before trying to reject it at all cost, I know there are some players in the forums (a known shaman for example) that continuously complain and want the game to be dumbed down, I’m the complete opposite of that, I want the game to have content that is as challenging as possible for us who enjoy it.
My idea is something that would not hurt anyone, and it has zero impact on players pushing higher keys, like myself, but instead it would make entry level M+ less punishing for failure and more encouraging to learn and improve, which would result in a larger pool of competent players. Which I believe only works in favor of more challenging content in the future.
You’re comparing raiding to something that is supposed to be an alternative to raiding. Not everything translates like you seem to think it does. You’re also coming up with all these different solutions to something that has an easy fix which is completely within a player’s control. Don’t pug content that isn’t meant to be pugged. Or if you do pug it, then expect varied results and live with the consequences of your choice. All you are advocating is making content that isn’t meant to be pugged easier to pug.
Regardless, I agree that this isn’t moving forward and we’ll have to agree to disagree.