A Serious Issue with Dungeon Vote Kick System and Player Toxicity

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
42

No, I’m not. I’m just accepting that it is better than the alternative. You, and they, are ignoring all of the reasons this exists in the first place.

On multiple occasions I spent 2+ hours trapped in a dungeon I couldn’t finish because of this. That is worse than a 30 minute time out. Trapped players had to choose between acquiescing to players’ circumvention of the system meant to prevent them from doing what they were doing, potentially being caught in a loop of perpetual quitters or leaving after a 30-40 minute wait time in queue, accepting a 30 minute penalty, and then queuing again hoping not to get the same result.

That is way worse than anything being complained about right now.

Quantity of posts will never be a good measure of whether an argument is good. Case in point is this topic.

Yes, and to get those rewards a player needs to earn them by actually doing the random dungeon. If you want the rewards you need to actually perform the task.

It is a huge request, because the whole point of rewards for random dungeons is to increase the queue traffic for people selecting specific dungeons for whatever reason. Instead of them waiting 8 hours for four other people with a similar need, they can fill those groups with people queuing random. Blacklisting puts people who need an unpopular dungeon in a bad place for filling their group.

It’s because the queue system has always been about getting groups formed and completed and not about handing rewards to people who want them. To help with efficiency in getting groups completed and finished, they incentivize low population roles, or joining any dungeon, and they penalize behaviors that slow the process, like people quitting or demanding kicks to avoid penalty.

It is an automated system, so it will inherently lack nuance. This means there will be situations where the system is not ideal, and it needs to be designed in a way that prioritizes the successful function of the system overall more than individual player needs. If people are stuck being unable to complete one or two dungeons, and being stuck for hours trying, the system is broken. People accepting a 30 minute timeout from time to time is a small price to pay for a functional system.

Or, you can continue to stubbornly insist that people doing a leave-train on Occulus (and others, by the way, wasn’t a problem, despite the testimony of the people who were there.

Honestly, most people are whiners. Oculus was fine. The dragons had 3 buttons and was short when everyone knew what they were doing. Zul’gurub was fine, it was just long. Halls of Origination was fine, it was just long.

43

You’re saying the reason the debuff was added was BECAUSE OF people being stuck in dungeons, yet you also say that you waited in a dungeon for that long… prior to the debuff? You wasted 2+ hours of your play time waiting in a dungeon that you could have left with no consequences rather than be “trapped” by a tank. Referencing Oculus repeatedly when that dungeon isn’t even relevant anymore isn’t exactly a good argument at all. Yes, they implemented the debuff because of hostage tanks. They then increased it’s power to leaving after first boss because of people leaving Ara-Kara. However removal vs leaving are two different things.

Old system is old. Dungeon queues don’t take 30-40 minutes on average (unless you play at 2am). Not to mention there are about 10 other things in relevant content you can be doing while waiting for a dungeon queue. Some people don’t have hours upon hours to play in wow, and most people who are complaining about this are new or casual players who don’t spend very much time on wow to begin with. Having 1/4 of your play time cut out because you’re unable to go with the flow of the group is batty.

If you want to continue with your brick wall argument I’m just going to ignore it.

44

No, you’re not understanding. The deserter debuff for leaving has always been there. Getting kicked, however, used to have no debuff. So when a tank or healer queued at random into a dungeon they didn’t want, they could leave and get a 30 minute penalty, or demand to be kicked, circumvent the penalty, and queue again immediately. Which option do you think they chose?

So the tanks and healers were able to actually desert dungeon after dungeon with no penalty, while they fished through random queues until they got one that was acceptable. Meanwhile, if the dps who had been abandoned left, they were tagged with a 30 minute penalty before they could queue again. As a result, many waited in the dungeon hoping that one of the tanks or healers that got added would actually just do the dungeon.

Well, I don’t have any examples more current than Oculus from Wrath and Zul’Gurub from Cata. Do you think it’s because in the intervening years the community has matured to the point where they won’t exploit loopholes in systems for their own personal benefit and at the expense of others?

Or do you think it might be that the deserter debuff for being kicked has eliminated the situation I’ve described, so it hasn’t happened since Cata? Sounds to me like the rule change was pretty effective…

They are, I agree, but they’re functionally the same when one person can leverage the party into removing them to avoid the penalty for leaving.

And yet you’re advocating for a system that will, not might, will result in them not being able to finish a dungeon they queue for if it’s a dungeon tanks and/or healers don’t want to do…

It’s only a brick wall argument because you haven’t understood it yet. Hopefully it’s more clear now.

Oh no, and I so craved your approval…

45

Deserter debuff was added after Oculus was already a dungeon for a while.

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46

Are you intentionally avoiding that the issue is between when the deserter debuff was created and when it came to be applied to people who were kicked as well as those who left?

Besides, your point isn’t relevant because the automated dungeon finder was added after Oculus was already a dungeon. Both LFD and the Dungeon Deserter debuff were added together on 12/8/2009 with patch 3.3.0.

I said Dungeon Deserter has been present since the beginning, and I hope I don’t need to clarify that “since the beginning” refers to “the beginning of automated groups”, not the beginning of WoW, or the beginning of dungeons…

47

I second OP, get rid of Dungeon Deserter for people who are kicked. I have ONLY seen it used to abuse new players and those that stick up for them by toxic tryhard jerks. That or add a system to report toxic kicks so people who abuse the system lose the ability to use it. The system as-is is broken.

48

Right. Because DPS had to sit in a queue for 30 minutes to get any dungeon at all. Tanks got instant queues, so could just leave and requeue until they got a better dungeon.

49

Remove the deserter debuff and you’ll have people doing the exact same thing in City Of Threads right now.

You don’t get any greater rewards for completing the longer dungeons, and that’s the problem when there’s a dungeon with 10 minutes of forced RP like CoT, in the same queue as dungeons that take 3 minutes total like The Rookery.

50

You can think whatever you want, but there are people who abuse the vote kick system.

I have seen it multiple times myself, people who queue for something and then they all sit in org, never zone in, wait 5 minutes, then vote kick you just to grief you.

Most vote kicks are not “abuse” of the system, but there are definitely SOME groups of dents that do abuse it and they should be looked into.

51

Nobody is saying there is no abuse of the system. Every automated system can be abused. All that’s being said is that the attempt to fix this small amount of abuse will cause a much worse problem.

On the one hand, I’m sorry that it happens. I’m sure it’s frustrating to have your gameplay ruined by bad actors.

On the other hand, it’s 30 minutes, bad actors exist in the world, and there isn’t a way to stop them all, so sometimes we just have to tough it out.

52

There is absolutely such a thing as an unfair kick.

The problem is, there’s a huge amount of players that treat kick windows like grandmothers closing pop up windows. They just assume there must be a good reason for it to be going up and immediately click yes without any thought to the situation. I’ve been kicked for saving a group from a near-wipe by a troll, because the troll put me up for the kick first.

For a new player, who hasn’t done anything wrong (except maybe being low dps when they have greens/whites while the more experienced players are in full heirloom/blue equivalent, that is INSANELY toxic and drives new people away.

53

The thing about deserter. It sucks, but it’s a necessity.

I think they had no deserter buff for vote kicks in a while, and you’d run into jerks holding groups hostage. They’ve had enough of their group, but instead of leaving and taking deserter, they’d demand to be vote kicked. And sometimes you couldn’t kick them immediately, so either someone has to take the deserter instead of toxic jackass, or you can be petty and wait them out.

What we need is more GMs and individual eyes on case-by-case things like this and handing out some suspensions, but Blizzard has shown they don’t really want to invest in that.

54

I mean I just can’t see why it’s still a 30 minute cooldown when being in queue and completing a dungeon is less than 30 minutes total, even with unskippable rp. Especially when anyone in the group can swap to being a tank or healer if that role is needed within the dungeon until the role is replaced, and most often times that role is replaced within 60 seconds. Just seems to be overkill.

55

I think the idea is to keep offenders out of the queue for a while and make it inconvenient to troll. Letting them requeue and immediately grief another group would, in theory, be worse. No comment on whether that’s effective or not, but logically it seems sound. Just unfortunate that some players are punished unfairly.

56

8 hours. Gimme a break. Will you please get off this crucifix.

. If no one wanted to do Occulus…OH F-ing well. Seriously…stop making this the hill you need to die on.
You being unable to complete Occulus isn’t remedied/compensated for by giving you the ability to randomly kick players in dungeons and punish them with a debuff.
Im not buying this crap argument and i’m sick of you and others pushing it so hard.
The crime and the punishment aren’t even close to being fair or equal–this is lopsided garbage…period.

Design dungeons people want to complete and no one will bail on your groups.
If it was always a tank or healer doing it, then guess what? roll one! that’s what I did years ago when I started playing b/c my guild never had any tanks…we were literally pooping healers. Been tanking ever since and never had any issues completing content.

Occulus was a crap fest. I already told you why I would leave it, I wasn’t even aware you could have people kick you until it was too late to take advantage of it. But the debuff wasn’t 30 minutes back then though.

I dont log in to do a random dungeon to teach players how to do it or play their class…that is what guilds are for.

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57

I won’t be dying on this hill. I’ve got all of the facts and logical support backing me up against emotional and self centered outbursts. If you want to keep attacking the unassailable fortress I will happily, and easily, keep defending.

No, but it is remedied by not allowing people to circumvent the penalty by demanding a kick. Any random kicking is an unfortunate, but necessary byproduct.

Flat Earthers, Moon Hoaxers, and anti vaxxers also don’t buy the truth, and get equally exasperated with having it pushed at them so hard. It doesn’t make them right either.

In every dungeon pool, there will be at least one that is longer, harder, with less desirable loot, or less enjoyable than the others. That is reality. If people aren’t willing to do every dungeon in the set, then they need to queue for the ones they are willing to do.

You should probably do at least a little background digging on the character to whom you’re responding.

The fact that I’m already a tank notwithstanding, people who play lock, hunter, mage, and rogue don’t have a tank or heal spec option. Your solution is that no one should ever play those classes as mains or alts if they would like to use LFD as any part of their progression. That’s a bad argument at the core.

It wasn’t, but we can agree to disagree on this point.

Nobody but you cares.

Then you weren’t part of the problem.

The debuff has been 30 minutes for all but the first 3 months or so of LFD.

When you do a random dungeon with a random group, you don’t have any control over where you go or who you get grouped with. You are allowed to help a bad group finish, carry them, kick the weak link, or quit.

What you can’t do anymore, thankfully, is demand that the group kick you so you can bypass the penalty and queue fish until you get what you want. That’s horrible for the community and makes the LFD system a broken mess.

If any of you can propose a system that will prevent that outcome, and also prevent penalties for people who are kicked “unfairly”, without requiring hundreds of thousands of employees to spend millions of hours poring through chat logs and reviewing dungeon performance, then I will be right beside you advocating for it to Blizzard. Until then, this is as good as it gets.

58

condescending response as always, please feel free to join Sosari in your echo chamber hon.

We’ve offered solutions and you and your ilk continue to just shoot them down in bad faith b/c you want the system to stay how it is - I guess if that’s what you want, then have it, in the meantime, those of us who care about more player agency and less punishments across the board will continue to lobby the devs to make meaningful content people dont view as a chore and to not give punishments to players over things they have no control of.

Also to whomever used the word “hostage.” - the person who queues for a random dungeon and gets the one that the entire community has trouble completing is the one being “held hostage” --they either have to stay and waste upwards of an hour teaching people a fight that they should already know BEFORE they came into queued content to do or leave and take a penalty or get kicked and take a penalty.

Some raisin-ranch players in here are still salty about occulus even though it was 200 years ago. Notice how Occulus didnt make it to Timewalking…? :smiley: I am pretty sure there was a reason for that. This is a fail on blizz’s part…yet here we are arguing about leaving dungeons or getitng kicked when it was a community-wide issue.

I will ALWAYS be in favor getting at the root of a problem instead of just looking for ways to punish players.

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59

I respond with the tone I’m given. If you want something different, put something different in.

We shoot them down because they’re bad. Come up with better solutions and, as I said before, I’ll advocate for them with you.

Hi, welcome to Massively Multiplayer Games.

Oculus and Zul’gurub, in particular. Sorry, I don’t have any more recent examples. Blizzard fixed the problem so nobody’s been able to do it for 14 years or so.

Circumventing penalties was absolutely a community problem. If people could behave appropriately there would have been no need to adjust the rules.

60

Most of this holds true to Mythic plus as well. Minus the obvious…

61

Agree, the 30mins timeout needs to go. It’s like being punished for others not liking you
Also there should be a rule that if group makes to the final boss then Vote kicks cannot be cast.

1 Like