Also grinding 5 different factions to revered to just access their respective heroic dungeons.
And doing some heroic dungeons is part of the raid attunements.
Interesting, my BRD runs never had that air about them. We didn’t loiter around or anything but we were never in a rush either.
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Where did the creativity go since Legion? I’m just one of those folks who is not a fan of timed runs, I’m glad there is a percentage of players who likes it good for them. Mega dungeons allowed me to chat with friends at a pace where normally a timed run the conversation was about execution of CC this, rotate aoe stuns/slows, kite and barely any breathing room to chat other topics.
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I’d forgotten about that lol. I didn’t really raid in BC. I got to mage tank in Gruul’s Lair once though! I had enough stam thank to all the arena gear.
I don’t get a reward for doing a +20 today and yet here I am, still trying to time a +20.
I would have designed M+ without a timer to begin with, personally. We wouldn’t need threads asking for a “speed run” version of M+ because you can just simply speed run it yourself. People already speed run raids without incentive or a timer telling them to do it. People already speed run M+ trying to do the dungeon in 20 minutes when you technically only needed 30 minutes.
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I think it just gets really tricky because mythic+ is designed to be an alternate gearing system to raids, with gear matching even mythic raid gear, so there is a need to also make it relatively challenging.
Where it was more relaxed and chill when doing dungeons was essentially casual/catchup gear or a few valor items of nonhighest raid gear.
But is that a recent phenomenon though since when? Because when it was relevant where the journey was the “experience” were there many people saying this is so damn grindy, I will say this yeah there was some level of toxicity and ego-driven pricks in those times aka elitist around then.
The people who replay FF7 or 8 or another RPG game are thinking its grindy and I wish I could buy a boost, probably not and I like to know when this grindy mentality took shape where in hindsight, what we see today “yeah, it was very grindy in reflection but it didn’t bother me as to compare how SL grindiness may seem evident in my enjoyment although less grindy to TBC.”
Wasn’t the fastest Naxx clear a couple weeks ago like 45 minutes? No extra gear reward, no achievement. They did it 'cause.
Yeah, I don’t expect all dungeons to have those RPG elements, and yeah covenant is serving that purpose now in SL. Still nice a class RPG element once in a while in dunnies, raids.
True, but then they’d have to push rewards further. People who get stuck on +7 now will get to +12 without timer easily, which means +20 will be what +15 is now, for 210 ilvl drops.
I’d rather not have that.
Like you need to understand that raiding exists, and if they removed timer and made it easy to gear through m+, raiding would die instantly.
As much as I dislike asmongold, there is one quote that I think rings pretty true:
“Games should make you want to waste your time, not force you to waste your time”
You can include so-called grinding if the general population deems it fun and worth their time. You know, hiding vitamins in a smoothie.
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So they’ll have to calibrate rewards to match the difficulty of the content? Alright. Done.
Not sure how this is the crux for you.
Raiding didn’t die in BFA and M+ was a far more accessible avenue for gearing up then, even without the vault, compared to today.
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I don’t have a clear issues with M+ outside of Blizzards need to make it as unfun as possible. If I could pull something from another thread that I made during BFA on the issue…
While I think that the affix that comes from the current raid is an interesting idea, it blows my mind that Blizzard didn’t consider an actual rating system similar to what PvPers get in terms of rewards. They could have a seasonal rotation just like they do for PvPers and give out rewards based on how hard you made pushes in M+ while it was available. They could have also made it thematic and based each season rewards on the dungeon in question.
Like a Waycrest Manor themed season with xmog sets based on how hard you pushed in all the dungeons in M+, a wicker mount if they pushed to the next level, and then a Gorak Tul tabard with a glowing aura coursing through it. Something like that would make M+ a lot more interesting for players that already enjoyed it in Legion, and people that are somewhat interested in it to begin with. You could even add a rotating affix that based on the current raid and the current seasons theme to switch it up.
Dunno, I feel that M+ in BFA was underwhelming and definitely missing new features for it. And I’m suggesting creating sets for M+ since we have lost, and yes Blizzard it’s a loss for everyone, our tier sets.
Also who’s idea was it to remove gear swapping in Mythic +? If a player comes prepared for the encounters then let them be prepared. Let the gear they’ve acquired over time help them push keys
The problem extends from the experience not being fun because we’re being tackled to the ground on how we enjoy the game. The affixes for the most part have not been fun or engaging. The reward system is just lacking and has been exaggerated since they decided to lower the gear drops and then adding an AoE cap to all the classes. Like how does that make sense gameplay wise?
“We want you to speedrun but at our pace”?
This is the singular issue.
Let’s take the extreme example: high end, “competitive” M+.
The players that do this do not discuss strategy and execution.
Why?
Because they’ve already discussed strategy and execution. They know exactly what they need to do and how to do it, the “game” is actually pulling it off.
After a few runs, any player worth their salt “know the strategy and execution” of a dungeon. In fact, if you don’t, what happens? You get yelled at. It’s expected that players entering dungeons “know the fights™”.
The players of high end M+ know the fights and routes and short cuts and tips and tricks more than a random player in a heroic or low level M+. Teams, guilds, etc. discuss all of this during the runs. Many players try to learn from failed key attempts, to refine their strategy and execution.
What happens with the “endurance” dungeon with no timer?
Like every dungeon before it, people learn the dungeon, get more powerful, expect everyone else to know the dungeon, and gogogo to the end.
Why?
Because they’ve seen it all before. While they may like the play mechanics, what they are there for is the boss at the end and the loot. Look at any Plaguefall thread about folks skipping bosses.
So, even dungeons with no timers are going to have…timers. Player do not want to spend any more time in dungeons than they have to. They don’t want to sit around and “bond” with strangers, chatting up each boss.
No, they want the trash dead, the boss dead, the instance done, and the toy in the box at the end – as quickly as possible.
So, the only way to prevent that is to have a RANDOM dungeon. Something that players are not prepared for. They stumble upon a boss and…hey what mechanics does this guy do? Who knows! Pull it and see!
You think those dungeons will be fun? Figuring out each boss each time you run it? Honestly, I don’t think so. Either they’re trivial, or they’re going to be group killers and time sinks. May as well run the entirety of BRD instead of a chat slog through unknown space.
We actually have this now, it’s called “Torghast”, it’s just not hard enough to matter. And I’m pretty sure players don’t want Torghast to be any harder.
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It kinda was. It’s much more alive now.
Tho I did like m+ gearing much more in BFA.
But this, removing timer, would make it even easier than it was in BFA.
And think of timer as packing up the difficulty to make runs not take too long. Without the timer they’d just increase difficulty so much runs would take 2-3 hours each.
MMO’s are grindy and they have been from day one. People knew it back then too. If you played other MMO’s before WoW, most of them were way grindier. SWG might have been the grindiest game I ever played and I’ve heard that some of the Korean MMO’s of that time were even worse.
WoW was successful because it was more accessible than the rest, but even at the peak of its success, MMO’s were a niche genre. Of course if we’re discussing a 15 year old game, it may be compared to what we have now. Madden 95 was probably great back in 1995, but time marches on.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
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Hopefully with their implementation of their own raider.io score they will add score base rewards than the current title and mount per season.
The affixes except Pride are mostly punishing affixes with no kiss/curse variant besides well Pride. Blizzard are good taking the fun out of the game and there is some justification that yeah there could be technical reasons why they opted to put those restrictions but by later taking away they have to know the community will get fire back.
Remember Heroic Shattered Halls? You had to complete the dungeon in 55 minutes to successfully attune yourself to Magtheridon’s Lair. Actually, you didn’t have 55 minutes to do the whole dungeon, only half of the dungeon, because the timer started after you killed the first boss. This was not a very accessible feat then.
I get that Blizzard signed off on making dungeon runs fit inside of a lunch-break back in Cataclysm, but a difficult dungeon experience isn’t that foreign of a concept. I agree that removing the timer makes the dungeon easier. All those players who were 2 minutes short from “succeeding” will now be successful and pulling aggressively will be de-emphasized. That’s literally the entire premise of removing the timer. Pointing out the premise of the alternative system isn’t going to offend me.
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Hard same. I play to explore and discover. I want to find something new to try. Figure something out on my own.
Figuring out and discovery are just ruined thanks to guides and streamers and data mining. Even the long chain “secrets” are just checklists now 
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