For me, I wouldn’t be interested in that being designed from the ground up. We already have Torghast, in the sense that you can’t take breaks reliably and you are in there for hours. And I don’t mind Torghast, but to have two numbingly long types of content would be two too much.
Just run for completion. A compromise might be had in allowing you to trade in a keystone for a +20, but the loot, vault, and any other rewards are based off of the highest key you’ve completed for that dungeon. Then it could be as hard as you wish, and the timer would be removed. That could work.
Except for story mode, this is what dungeons were in Wrath, which was, you know, peak WoW
But hey, if it works, that means you’re supposed to fix it, right?
1 Like
I feel like this would substantially hamstring the designers when it comes to dungeon layouts though.
Look at what they’re doing with Tazavesh. The 2nd Wing of Tazavesh has almost the entire wing’s trash in a single room, and then it’s boss boss boss in a row essentially (there’s two very minor trash-packs between boss 1 and 2 but very very brief, a distraction while some RP plays out). We’ve never really seen something that before. Even if you provided breaks between bosses, at the end of the day it will still be 10-12 minutes of straight Murloc pulls without a natural break point, and while they could conform themselves and abide by your restrictions, you’re limiting their creative freedom.
By contrast, the only thing M+ demands of the dungeon design is… well nothing realistically. You just put a timer on the whole thing and assign point values to trash mobs and you’ve done. The sky is the limit when it comes to dungeon design, although some things translate less well into M+ than other things.
Honestly, it sounds like what people what are “5 man raid encounters”. However, this is realistically a “you think you do, but you don’t” type situation. Like at the whining about losing torghast. The type of people who enjoy 5-mans do not like to lose. They do not want to be beaten by a 5-man boss and told to get lost. This is why people cry about Tyrannical in the first place - people hate losing to a Tyrannical boss, and love fortified because eventually they’ll be able to finish their key.
However, I do like the idea of like “Team Brawler’s Guild” with groups playing through a Cup broken up into matches, with matches being sequential waves of trash or a boss. Kingdom Hearts’s Coliseum follows this design and I think it could translate well into WoW to be honest as an alternative to the existing forms of content. And yes, I do hate Trial of the Grand Crusader but I said an alternative to not a replacement for existing content.
4 Likes
they would have to make hero/lust and all cd timers stop though, if not its just going to be “ok lets wait here for all of our cds to come back” not fun at all
I think a simple enough fix is that in the rest area you can heal to full, but your cooldowns stop resetting, same with lust debuff. it’s all on pause. Like the DnD “short rest” where you don’t get spellslots back.
4 Likes
That depends almost entirely on dungeon design and section length. Depending on how those are done, the benefit from sitting around and waiting for cooldowns could be negligible at best.
Plus we’re talking about dungeons that are that range in length between current M+ and “megadungeons” (aka traditionally-sized dungeons), meaning that they’ll take a while to complete to begin with, and players won’t want to extend that runtime too much further than necessary. Like they technically might be able to stretch runtime out to multiple hours for cooldowns, but the value to be had by doing so is close to nonexistent. They’d be better off not timing 3-5 regular M+'s than they would be waiting for cooldowns in multi-timer long-format M+.
1 Like
It’s comical how you think the same people doing timed high keys where the mobs nearly 1 shot the tank every pull won’t just obliterate the competition in this new easier mode as well.
The mobs already hit really hard and sometimes need CC in 20+ keys. The players just outplay it and can do it with a timer also. They’re just good at the game.
3 Likes
It’s interesting to me that Blizzard hasn’t designed around workarounds that allow gigapulls in M+. It’s not hard to do, just make one of the mobs’ hard hitters have medium range and suddenly kiting is toast and it’s entirely impractical to pull more than N mobs at once regardless of comp or strat.
3 Likes
Maybe some players would like to mess around on a 20+ key to see what it’s like without ruining someone’s week?
Anyone can step into a mythic raid* but trying out harder m+ difficulty is a huge key grind where it’s often going backwards.
*with server limitations on top 100
And again if people love timed m+, good for them. An untimed mode is for people who dislike timed gameplay. No one is forcing timed m+ elites to do it. It’s for, gasp, filthy casooals
3 Likes
ehh seems like you dont know the wow playerbase if there is a inch to gain theyll go for it,also nah bad idea dawg m+ is fine as it is, they already have problems making dungeons with aoe cap in mind this just limits the design even more, 40 min timer dungeons as a max is perfectly fine , if ppl want to stay after the timer good for them and if not just take the L and move on.
I could get on board with this idea. That being said, there will always be the issue of meta comps, guides and best strategies. Could be fun though.
Well to be frank, in my eyes if players are willing to go to donkey-bonkers lengths to trivialize content that’s a community problem. I can’t imagine how crippling it must be from a design perspective to have to protect the playerbase from itself that way constantly.
2 Likes
Or you could just run you own key and ignore the timer. Take all the time you want, you problem is fixed. Your welcome I’m glad I could help
2 Likes
The system punishes untimed keys. You know this, go away.
1 Like
Or maybe the devs enjoy the challenge of designing content for a community that will test their creations to the absolute limit.
I think it’s fair to say that people who make dungeons enjoy the technical aspects of dungeons.
You just get a key 1 level below your highest timed key next week no matter how many times you deplete. Once you time a key at a level you like you can mess around all you like. And you still get valor. And you still get loot. You don’t get the bonus loot because you didn’t play well enough. Play better.
2 Likes
The timer itself doesn’t but the way the timer impacts how we can beat the encounter definitely does. Timers are fine as I said. I still fondly remember timed Baron runs in Vanilla. In particular because the timer made sense (save the prisoners) as opposed to M+ where Blizz didn’t even try to give us an in game reason why it’s timed.
Timers limit how we play and that’s what’s anti RPG. They aren’t anti gaming however and can be a lot of fun. The design of M+ is great and offers a lot of interesting gameplay but they don’t really fit into an RPG framework.
WOW has become less RPG and more video game over the years to attract more players. I understand it and I like playing M+ with friends but I also lament the direction the game has taken. There are plenty of great games to play but almost no great multi player RPG’s.
1 Like
“I don’t understand that different people enjoy different aspects of a multiplayer game and I judge everyone based only on the aspects of the game that I, personally, enjoy and do well at something something Bartle’s Taxonomy”
4 Likes
If that were the case they wouldn’t have implemented the AoE cap in SL, because I can’t think of anything that “tests limits” as much as pulling half the dungeon at once in a high key does.