tbh given his history and the very weird summation of vanilla’s limited faction conflict as wc2 redux (when more often than not dwarves are the aggressors about as often as the forsaken are) I’m not sure it’s all in particularly good faith except in terms of wanting a playable faction to be his punching bag (i.e. it’s the brainworms speaking)
Not that it’s super surprising, it feels like most of the obviously euro player alts on here are just there to swamp the place with ridiculous factionbraining
shrugs I just usually assume people like that simply dont enjoy the story direction. As far as wanting a punching bag, to that I would point them in the direction of the COUNTLESS villians this game has besides the other faction.
The true enemy of the Horde and Alliance is and has always been the big bad. But if you are right and they are not in good faith I suppose there’s not much to say. I enjoy the story and I am sorry others dont for what ever reason they might have.
((For better or worse I assume everyones intentions are good as a default until proven otherwise))
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Probably a better way to approach this than endless cynicism, I think the faction stuff on both sides just makes me too easily bored of SF.
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See what I mean? You cant even think outside that morality spectrum. The global standard of morality applied to each faction is the lack of imagination. One moral compass to rule them all and that crap. But yeah, murder can totally be justified based on perspective. I mean before the love-hugging stuff started, killing Undead wasn’t murder in the Alliance, it was a good idea and it was. It’s all based on different perspectives. Killing your enemy isn’t murder, it’s required, encouraged, cherished, once again depending on perspective. But like I said, a lack of imagination, the current writers cannot see from any other perspective than their own and measure every action based on a specific moral compass.
And as a guy who has played Forsaken since the start, I don’t agree. People act like the Forsaken were broken, but they weren’t. Now they are.
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I get what you’re saying and it’s an interesting viewpoint, but I’d also submit using your same argument that there should be some more representation of those Forsaken who are just “bad”. The Forsaken aren’t a hivemind and aren’t just one person–there may have been a few examples of the Undead being not totally on-board with Sylvanas, but we’ve had like 20 years of them blighting enemies, allies, random creatures, etc. I can’t speak for every Forsaken player but it’d be nice to see some more narrative transition from the Forsaken who did what they did under Sylvanas and whatever they’re meant to be now. Helping the Worgens retake the country the Forsaken themselves destroyed. I’m sure there’s probably a few people out there who liked that questline for what it is but I’ve yet to meet one.
LOL I love Zerde you can feel his passion for the Alliance just reading his comments! Give me full RPG vibes…
Don’t worry Zerde, Jaina and most Alliance Heroes are safe… Blizz wont touch them for a long time, if ever! (I’m Joking dont get your pitch forks up Horde loyalist, its just a harmless tease! 
)
But you yourself have posted in this very thread you wish for this game to have more bad guys not more good guys. I am using your own standards here more than anything to explain why this is NOT a good idea. This is not a problem of morality it is a problem of function which i have until this point only hinted at. As it stands, if Forsaken were to imply the same ideology Sylvanas enforced on them, I dont see how they could function in the world, let alone in the Horde. I should make it more clear my point is not one of what Forsaken SHOULD do, its one stating on giving the power TO do.
You are making the claim that having characters fully good is stifling yet not seeing the double standard in how making characters fully bad is equally so.
I…do trust you know I used the word murder, not killing right?
Well if we are speaking on perspectives, that is your own and I have mine.
I agree, options for good and evil characters should be able to be played out. This is why I used the term “as evil” which implies a degree that can no longer be truly viewed are “morally grey”.
To make my case more clear: I do not believe any race or faction in this game in its entirety is truly good or evil and I think this is how it should be. I see zero examples of “love-hugging stuff” that mimic real-world morality in this game and if someone does…then I want to know what part of the world they are looking at, because in real-world examples I am pretty sure both factions would be labeled global threats.
Nor do I, and especially not for a playable race as that would take away a significant degree of agency (which to be fair, is more or less an illusion as your only progress is done via the same quests which are available to everyone, regardless of how they want their character to be morally [for the most part]). But you can still acknowledge that some races (let’s just say cultures) cleave more towards good or bad than others, which is also their appeal. When you get away from a cultural imperative, the people that signed up for that have every right to be critical of a vastly different direction.
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Please indeed. Blizzard did everything they could to show they were doing the “killed diplomats” thing. “To never return is a classic trope”. But then they tell you they died at the Alliance lines. And Anduin admits they made contact. The idea that Blizzard is writing all this for the reader to conclude they “got lost or some thing” is just not credible. I know the meme is that the Aliiance can’t be at fault and you want a narrative where the Forsaken were never rejected, but they are called “The Forsaken” for a reason.
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tbf Zerde is the other side of the legend - he’d say Sargeras himself is a better person than Hamuul Runetotem if he joined the alliance.
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Is that possible? Ill do some digging on lore, i just came back after a really long break.
He never did. Again, at best he mentions that the Alliance was wrong for discriminating against the forsaken(again debatable and Anduin is not god, other might not agree with his statement) but we never actually find out what happened to the diplomats. Even Sylvanas’ book never confirms it and she just assumes they were killed by Stormwind. Even under that assumption for all we know it was either Onyxia or Varimathas making sure the entire continent of EK would never unite.(which would fit both of their MO)
Good, because for the most part they have avoided going over the edge into full villain territory. The Horde, not so much. Admittedly Turalyon(or Yrel) might still get thrown under the bus but that is a concern for after Worldsoul trilogy.
In any case, as I keep mentioning we are about 3 more months from Chronicles 4. Lets see how the book that will cover TWO faction wars and how it portray the factions.
Your entire existence is dabbing on the Horde community must be sad and lonley over there. Must be nice to know all your favorites are protected by writers bias.
The irony of this statement from you. Personally, I don’t care about the Horde except for characters who ultimately wrong the Alliance getting their just desserts. Which for the most part seemed to have happened. Now if the Horde kindly stay on their side of the proverbial fence I wouldn’t even give them any particular thought.
Maybe if the Horde wasn’t such an evil organization that until recently never repented/followed their leaders on genocidal wars/got rid of more of their darker nature like using plagues/wanting to exterminate the draenei more of their leaders would be alive now.
“The Forsaken shouldn’t be evil,” and “Calia should lead the Forsaken” are not necessarily positions held by the same people.
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Staying behind the fence? Not happening. The alliance hogs too much spotlight already it’s time to send the alliance leaders into retirement for the next three expansions. You had far too much influence over the writing post WoD time to pull their fangs and give them a taste how it feels to be ignored.
Yeah, I doubt they will be getting ignored anytime soon especially considering what we know of the next three expansion. But good luck with that, maybe they will be ignore by year 2030s. Or not.
Alleria, Jaina, Anduin and Genn dominated the story far too long. Forcing the Horde to take quests from them was Blizzard’s biggest mistake.
It is, however, possible to see a point to “the forsaken shouldn’t be evil” and “the forsaken leadership reverting to divine right of kings is stupid”
I don’t particularly care for or against Calia, but as a plot point they definitely dialed it back from the original intent