I disagree, pretty strongly. Sorry.
yeah were arguing in circles here, i’ll just try to pivot into some of the other pointers of “we should have seen that coming” that exist in WoW.
Sylvanas, Jaina, and Yrel, along with the Female character and Armor designs i feel are the best showcases of WoW’s sexism, and were the big showcases of how we should have seen it coming. At the very least the current team isn’t sexist, even if their ability to actually write is often in question, so maybe as/if they start to improve we can have better female characters.
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See, I’m confused about this.
You and others are readily able to admit that sexism was the likely cause of some writing issues, but you suddenly and magically draw the line at Night Elves - the matriarchal race that ended up as WoWs veteran punching bag.
Yes, all of this over here WAS the result of sexism, but this one thing over here wasn’t.
Can you see how I might read a little bit of bias into that position?
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See, I think the issue is most of us arguing against you here but agreeing sexism is a problem just dont think nelves were made into a punching bag, but I do have one thing i wonder why you don’t use in this debate, since i actually think Sexism could be involved in it.
The assasination of Maiev Shadowsongs character in Wolfheart and Tyrandes treatment in Wolfheart, Vanilla, Cataclysm, and Mist of Pandaria.
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Interesting. So they are removing reference not appropriate to Shadowlands/Classic. Now the question is what that will be.
Simply because there is so much crap that’s been done to this race that I would be here all day if I tried to list it all. That’s one item on a very long list for me.
We obviously disagree on the matter that you mentioned previously - and have already discussed why. The strict text doesn’t matter to me so much as how the story is told and presented. That presentation, again, tends to have resources when it’s time to beat down on the Night Elves, but those resources are magically absent whenever it’s time for them to hit back, if they’re permitted to do so at all.
That’s firmly in punching bag territory.
The things that reference him specifically, such as his NPC or the Stratholme stuff.
Even if they wanted to remove literally everything that Afrasiabi was ever involved in they wouldn’t be able to do it simply because they don’t keep records like that, especially since a lot of WoW’s major plot beats come via impromptu jam sessions.
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Maybe, but maybe they will actually remove certain questlines which I hope isnt the case and just rename certain things.
I mean, I wonder if they will end say removing the double entendre from say Sons of Hodir?
Yeah were clearly not gonna convince each other on the whole punching bag thing. Ever. Like, literally ever.
Still I feel the treatment of the Nelf named characters are the most effective points you could make in this debate/lecture/squawking match. Moreso then the Highly debatable position of “Night Elves Biggest Punching Bag because Sexism”, there is a lot of hard evidence for the character assassinations and Blizzard general writing trends.
A person can rather easilly argue against the first, they can’t argue against the fact Tyrande was made an Idiot to make the Hyper-Masculine Varian Wrynn look good. It has more weight because the counter argument is just as bad, that She was considered less important then Varian’s character development. You can even tie in Jaina Proudmoore’s personality doing a 180 to make Varian look good.
You gotta pick your points carefully, ones easily contested, the other isn’t.
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Given the examples you’re elevating, I think this is splitting hairs at best - but it also is indicative of a Horde-player bias in favor of major characters over racial representation that I don’t subscribe to as being correct or universal. I can see why Horde players have this bias, but it doesn’t reflect the entire picture of MMORPG investment.
When i say your points more debatable, I mean i could legit make an entire essay on how trolls have it worse in wow, or how much narrative and thematic space the night elves take up. Hell I could point out Nelves have the most actual content in the game, with relevancy in every patch since Legions launch. Im not gonna unless you push it, but those are some basic counter examples i could do.
The actually point im making here is simple. Your saying Blizzards devs are sexist and thats why your dissatisifed with the nelf story. Yet you don’t use the hardest evidence possible to show your point, but far weaker evidence that has plenty of counter evidence. Just, use your best evidence, then tie it into your other points.
You are saying Blizzard are making the Night Elves, who have more high ranking female then any other race, punching bags for More Masculine factions. A good way to start is show how Maiev was assassinated for Jarod, a far less important character, or how Tyrande was made Incompetant so she could be saved by Varian, not once, but twice, and then tie it into the rest of the arguement you have. Say that if this is how 2 of the most important characters of the faction are being treated, then it’s likely it could apply onto a larger level then just characters. Then use the evidence of the Orcs being hyper masculine and beating the night elves.
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And absolutely none of those points would act as a refutation of my concern. Trolls are a red herring, and the firehose of awful content doesn’t magically become good because it’s a firehose.
You can’t debate with a concern.
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One, those were examples of the counter points i could make, the point of that post was telling you how to properly use POINTS in your debate.
Im not gonna respond to reinforce them unless you keep pushing me to, but If i wanted to im pretty sure i could make some counter arguments that, even if they don’t convince you, could get the people who actually arent dead set on their opinion being right to disregard what your saying. My point was that you can argue against the idea Nelves are the most mistreated race in wow being proof they got screwed by the sexist writers (Mostly because its evidence is flimsy as evidence since nelves aren’t the most abused race and the authors very clearly love them, just look at legion), but can’t when the point is that they ruined the female characters for other male characters.
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Only if Stormwind and Ogrimmar are destroyed. The status quo should be shaken up.
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I hope you don’t think that this is a gotcha because I’m 110% cool with that.
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Absolutely. Hopefully SW’s destructions comes while Baine is there in his alliance tabard he keeps hidden.
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Good ol’ Tigole Bitties. I’m sure he’s impeccable.
So, interesting night. Ended with @Abrosiabi calling me & my friend “b*****s” and pulled a “do you know who I am” so that was a good time!
Yeah. He swore he would never work with us b*****s if he had the chance. It was fun.
JAB pulled all of the women into a room the day after this happened and asked us about our concerns. At the time I thought it was an appropriate response.
He reassured us that Actions had been Taken™.
He remained creative director of WoWfor months/years after, then was given an opportunity to lead his own unannounced project.
Consequences, indeed.
And by all of the women, I mean every single female identifying person on the WoW team. It was a full room. Dozens of us. Dozens!!
I wondered for months afterward what Alex thought and said about us behind closed doors.
I’m pretty sure it was more of a request than a gotcha.
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I’m just
The last time I heard this phrase was in my undergraduate days in an actual fraternity
(Ended up separating from Greek life cuz of abuse before anyone asks, abuse because I called folks out and reported people)
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Honestly i think that would be a great thing at this point.
Orgrimmar is an eyesore and Stormwind is the most bland/boring of the human kingdoms.
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