Because there wouldn’t be a challenge.
M+ top runners are getting close to pushing 30 keys…do you see the level of modifications on the mobs at that level? It’s insane. Even your average “exceptional” group isn’t going to be able to make timers.
The timer is the challenge. Planning routes. Specific mobs. Exact CC/kick/cooldown rotations. One missed one and it’s game over.
Pull 1 mob at a time…not a challenge
He’s right though. No amount of gear will cover bad anima powers.
^ this x 1,000. Players who want to replace M+ seem to want to go back to the CC and kill modality that was prevalent in early WoW.
This is completely regressive and requires no skill. If such a model is brought back, I’d only be cool with it if the rewards were strictly inferior to M+.
They put up “recommended” ilvls because people kept asking for it. I leveled up a fresh 60 druid and did layer 8 solo. Gear doesn’t matter much in Torghast.
Keep calling me disingenuous when I am basing everything on experience, that you don’t seem to have.
Everyone is thinking plenty hard enough. You’re not the first, nor will you be the last person to pitch this idea. It’s been brought up countless times before.
There are already 3 methods to gearing in this game, and most people would argue they aren’t very balanced. M+ gearing felt pretty pitiful this expansion. Adding a 4th method on top of that doesn’t sound enticing.
On top of that, most M+ timers are between 30-40 minutes… How much longer do you think most players want to spend in these dungeons? You proposed giving a reward to the time taken for the LONGEST DUNGEON (idk how that makes sense at all). How long do you want these 5 mans to be? 60, 90, 120 minutes? How many people didn’t even bother with Twisting Corridors simply due to how much of a time investment it is. TC is criticized for being too long, and you can essentially do that as a 5 man if you want too.
You scale the dungeons to the current patch, I don’t know why this is such a hard concept? The idea that dungeons need to be run endlessly for an entire patch is burning out the player base hard.
WoW is a raid focused MMO since it’s beginning, this is why the bulk of the people play the game. Trying to replace raiding with endless spamming the same 8 dungeons for years is causing massive burnout.
The developers obsession with padding MAUs through systems like renown, M+ and time gating is killing their game.
This is so true. Especially for pugs. Add in a death count limit, gg.
Data source? Don’t think the majority of players play because of raiding.
You could do that, but the dungeons would be obsolete after a week. I’m surprised that people are surprised that this game is a grind fest. It’s been that way since day one.
Not a complete answer, but you could just not play M+.
I hate how M+ shapes how every dungeon encounter is designed (nothing too complex, nothing that is too unique that it will be a nightmare to balance with affixes, etc), but that just means I stop doing dungeons once I cap and have my tmog. 
Maybe dungeons were fine the way they were? I don’t get this obsession with everyone having to turn the game into this oppressive challenge?
I think this is just a thing with modern gamers sadly. You guys don’t want to play a RPG you want a action RPG game that has a heavy focus on “challenge” which completely flies in the face of the original vision of the game.
Because the original version of the game was like 17 years ago. People, games, everything evolves.
Balancing affixed in existing content is far simpler than adding content (which is probably why Blizzard has drifted in the direction they’ve gone in the first place).
The Go Go Go mentality has drifted out of M+ and into virtually every instance run. The playerbase is split on this - and there’s so much toxicity involved. I won’t repeat the details of why Go Go Go is not appropriate for every instance everywhere or why some classes simply cannot move as quickly as others (in a practical sense) or why some classes need a bit more fighting room than the Go Go Go tanks want to allow. There are literally dozens of relatively recent posts on the forums about this.
How would it hurt to to have a second measurement of challenge - a hard-core (no non-player-cast resurrections allowed, full clear required, no player or character substitutions) mode for those of us who prefer not to “rush in where Angels fear to tread” but prefer instead to think our way through encounters and RP mortality.
Code for ageist bigotry.
[quote=“Vanya-emerald-dream, post:38, topic:999921”]
Just because you see a few people complaining about go-go-go on GD, doesn’t mean that people want to do away with M+.
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First of all, it’s more than “a few people” and in more locations than just the General Discussion forum. Second, I haven’t said a thing about “doing away with M+” - only about allowing another reward path. It’s the whole “But M+ is the only real way to play” mentality this shows in you that I’m trying to push back against.
I don’t want “no effort” - I want a different effort. Not everyone thinks this game should be drifting into a PVE equivalent of Fortnite or has forgotten that it is, by definition, an MMO-RP-G, not an MMO-RunAsFastAsYouCanToTheFinish-G.
I’m in OP’s camp, but don’t know how to resolve the issues brought up by the intro of M+. Very glad people enjoy them, but I hate them – raiding is where I like to get sweaty, not dungeons.
I think the major issue presented by the “challenge” element is the strength of the rewards. Clearly, folks that run high M+ hate the idea that some of us might “grandpa-pull” our way to success, but I have to believe it’s because they want better rewards for being better at the game. Is there room for raising the difficulty & rewards levels at lower tiers, maybe making the completely useless Heroic dungeon into M0 and having an untimed M5 equivalent? Rewards could cap out at a place that keeps M+ relevant, but still provide a space for people who hate timers.
I’d like to see more large group content for the guild to do, personally. Torghast is a great opportunity to use old assets to make compelling, varying content that can include more people. I’d love to see some kind of 5-10 person flex mode in dungeons, Torghast, or both that only require a single tank and healer – we’re already heavy on DDR and individual responsibility, so why not lean into that philosophy with a mode that requires less of the underpugged roles?
Anyways, I’m glad people like M+, but healing them early this xpac beat any interest out of me, even when playing with guildies – not unlike healing heroics back in Cata. I don’t care about KSM, faster gear, or mythic level ilvl – it would just be nice to do some low stress group PvE during the week. I’m pretty sure this philosophy can coexist with M+.
lol what
wow QoL went up significantly with m+, it’s the single best thing they added to the game. There’s something to do now outside of raid, rather than fly circles around our garrison fountain.
point to me anywhere this is stated officially. I’ve never role played a day in my life.
well, except way back in the prodigy bbs days.
if you’re under the impression that “go go go” started with m+, you are unequivicoally wrong.
People wanted fast runs since the start. This did not begin with M+.
They weren’t “fine” the way they were before. It was a waste of developer time to create a dungeon that was only relevant for 1 or 1.5 patches, if that. Adding repeatability and scalability was one of the best things they could have done.
Sorry that isn’t the case at all. Have you played Classic at all? Dungeons were busy the entire time Classic was a thing. Like many posters here, you are just way too focused on providing endless content for 1 character. It’s okay to be finished with content on a character, it allows you to play alts do professions and play other games during patch cycles.
This idea that people need endless forms of progression for the entire life of a patch is just causing burn out.
It’s not working either Dapler, people are leaving the game in droves for games like ESO and FF14 because those games are doing a much better job at catering to real MMO R P G gamers.
Sounds like torghast go do that
So we’ve drifted from that ^^ to this vv…
And you wonder why I say you’re being disingenuous.
Of course gear matters.
And of course Torghast’s idiotic anima powers make this not a perfect analogy.
But what I said was true. I’ve seen even well-geared teams in there fail because what they thought was a safe pull turned out to be linked mobs.