A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

Lore Story Forum
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I can only respond to one person in real time at a time. My exchange with Solarion is new and has priority.

The Scarlet Brotherhood is part of the Scarlet Crusade- likely a rebranding. There’s also Crimson Pilgrims in Scarlet Crusade dress. I already linked the quest that stated they’re raising money to reform. I also posted the link where it’s stated, specifically in regards to the Hose of Nobles, that support for Anduin isn’t universal.

If I had to guess why the Scarlet Pamphlets support Genn and not Turalyon, it’s probably because they came out in BfA. Anduin didn’t place Turalyon in charge of the military and didn’t disappear until Shadowlands. Genn looks like the original plan, but then Turalyon appeared as an even more appealing option.

I’m not ignoring your posts, but you are obviously ignoring/not reading my links.

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Yes, you had to get extremely specific. Because there’s various non-villainous Void entities, because the void is, fundamentally, not necessarilly an all evil force and can be used for good.

To the point where even the naruu are creatures of the Void as well as the Light, as they need to go through a Void phase as part of their natural life cycle.

Void energies are what allowed the curse of flesh and allowed humans, dwarves, gnomes, and many other races to exist.

In focusing exclusively on the olf gods- of whom we’ve only seen a fraction- as the end all and be all of the Void, and dismissing the Void as something that cannot and should not be abided by, you’re basically falling into Xe’ra’s line of thinking. And Xe’ra is wrong.

Not all of the Void is evil and not all of the Light is good.

I addressed this one above and with links. The Scarlets are still around and kicking. Definitely not in full force, but they aren’t completely wiped out.

Anyone who wants to read our discussion on that topic can do so here.

There, they’ll see can see how your incorrect statements were corrected and how you kept moving the goal posts until you left the thread entirely, only to then create another thread trying to make the same arguments. Here.

And here.

Those are just a few examples.

That’s what you do. You make a thread with the same arguments. People thoroughly correct them, you abandon thread, and then you make a new one a little later acting like you just weren’t proven wrong at every turn earlier.

That’s only 3 people mentioned in your “hate brigade”. That leaves at least twice as many people who liked the post that aren’t a part of it. Obviously people can and do disagree with you without hating you.

I don’t strawman you and you don’t debunk counteraguments. You simply make incorrect claims, abandon threads when you’re proven wrong, and make a new thread repeating the same incorrect claims. This has already been established with a glance at your post/thread history.

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What’s the statute of limitations on lore? How old does something need to get before we can literally ignore it?

If you can discount MoP era lore because it’s old does that mean I can discount Cataclysm lore because it’s even older? That would be great.

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Whenever new lore comes out that contradicts it. So the idea that everyone universally hates the Scarlets and the Scarlets are gone gets contradicted when Scarlets still exist and get to walk around Dalaran and Stormwind and distribute propaganda.

And yeah, a lot of lore and events that happened in Cataclysm have been rendered obsolete by recent events as well.

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Nobody is distributing propaganda in Stormwind and Dalaran though. The Scarlet Brotherhood pamphlets are found in Tirisfal.

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Indeed they aren’t. But there’s in point in releasing pamphlets calling a for a new king in Stormwind if the only people who’re going to read it are people in Tirisfal who’re already a part of your cause.

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You were asserting that they “get to walk around in Stormwind and distribute propaganda.” They don’t. Maybe the Scarlet Brotherhood wishes they could, but there is no evidence that they can.

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I don’t mean they do all of it in Dlaran and Stormwinfd simultaneously. There are no Crimsin Pilgrims in Stormwind, and no Emissary in Tirisfal, for instance.

What I mean, specifically is…

Members of the Scarlets currently walk around Dalaran as of Legion.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Crimson_Pilgrim

They have continued producing and distributing propaganda since BfA.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/manifestos-from-the-scarlet-brotherhood-tabloid-books-in-tirisfal-glades-312225
They are focused on the politics of Stormwinf.

There’s a related quest that never got released in BfA that has them raising money for a comeback.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/the-mysterious-8-1-5-dark-ranger-velonara-quest-in-the-scarlet-halls-290617

There is an emissary of the Crusade in the Cathedral that Blizzard has never saw fit to remove.

Based on the above- none of which has been contradicted by anything that’s happened in Shadowlands- there is more than enough reason to believe that the Scarlets exist since the events of MoP and Legion and that open members are not considered hostile enough that they’re automatically killed-on-sight in Stormwind or other places where the Alliance holds sway.

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He hasn’t been relevant since vanilla and hasn’t been touched since Cataclysm. As per your own assertion, his presence was rendered meaningless by new lore introduced in MoP.

So? I have opinions on all sorts of politics from all over the world, does that mean I’m being freely allowed to distribute propaganda in those places?

They’re part of the Priest Order Hall stuff. Is the Conclave next on your list of Scarlet Crusade sympathizers because they recruited disillusioned priests from their ranks?

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Those pamphets are pretty much proven already to be false. They believe that Calia Menethil married Daval Prestor in secret and birthed a full blood heir to Lordaeron. This seems like like the work of the Twilight Cultists who are still following N’Zoth under some new Twilight Prophet.

The attack of character on Genn Greymane also points away from the Scarlets and more towards the undead.

If I had to guess who wrote those pamphlets I think it’s an undead member of the Twilight’s Hammer trying to cause a rift in Alliance politics. The True Heir of Lordaeron doesn’t exist.

The Scarlet Apostates are lead by Miriella Ward, whose official title is "The Heretic. " They are the defectors of the Crusade and that’s why they are in Dalaran in Legion, they are an official member of the priest Conclave.

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And that was later rendered meaningless by new lore in BfA showing that the Scarlets are very much alive.

In most cases, yes. And even when you aren’t, you can still do so rather easily when you have sympathetic parties. They’re basically referencing and laying down the seeds of…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_during_the_Reformation

But in WoW.

They’re defectors from the Scarlet Onslaught, who themselves were an even more extremist sect of the Scarlet Crusade. But yeah, if the Conclave is going to harbor Scarlets, and Shadow priests and the like, there’s clearly individuals within the Conclave who are content to let them live, so long as it serves their ends.

Historical enemies working together to fight off the Legion was a common occurence in Legion.

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Blizzard going too far is them being them.

I don’t think you can call that a fact, and, cheap score settling is not the realm of a good force. (Mortal scores are, by nature, cheap.) The strict logic of a concept does not mean it is the concept in use. Any story will have a large number of logical paths flowing from any given event, they cannot all be taken.

I would assume the Maghar scenario is mostly the gameplay wanting something and the story fitting it.

With the story presented I don’t think it’s a villain bat of Yrel, it’s showing us the Light. As I’ve mentioned before, True Light is outside the universe, therefore it’s outside time. When the two timeways crossed and contaminated each other it would have been very visible to outside observers.
So my guess would be a more militant Xe’ra in the AU was pushed by True Light, and caused what is essentially a mirror of the corruption of the Orcs (swap in Draenei). The killing of MU Xe’ra was probably used as a catalyst, a “Light” mirror of our timeline’s maddening whispers of the Void. AU Xe’ra will likely hold Velen as an enemy, and possibly Turalyon since he didn’t avenge MU Xe’ra.

In that vein, in the MU, Lightforged are those who choose to join the Army of the Light. The choice, for narrative purposes, of calling the AU force “Lightbound” sets the concept apart to begin with. It is not the choice of the MU, it’s a binding to serve, to be bound… like Domination.
The obvious arc would be that in the AU the Void is not the maddening whispers, it’s the Light. Which makes perfect sense in an alternate universe story system.

(The real nasty question is how far they developed the concept: Does WoW have a true multiverse of infinite possibility? Or is WoW limited to to a multiverse only comprising one each where the different cosmic forces have majority power? Did they just wing this all, and they don’t know? LOL, we know, door #3…
If they were to actually try and make it rational, door 2 fits the cosmic powers already presented. And the story arc would end up going between the different AU’s bringing all the cosmic forces into balance. However, with positing the First Ones, they already damaged this possible arc. Or they could let us all down and the First Ones are only makers of the Shadowlands.)

The WoW cosmology premises on a balance between the different Forces. Like in the MU, when one overpowers the others, it should be destructive to the environment. So it is a safe presumption that the Light taking over on Draenor destroyed the habitability of the world.
The cosmic powers themselves are not mortal beings in the physical universe to feel or know the meaning of ruining the habitation of mortals.

People should not judge characters from other timelines based on their portrayal in the main timeline. They’re different characters which share the same name. They will have wildly divergent views and responses; if they were the same person there wouldn’t be differing timelines.

So, to compact that: AU Draenor has different parties, but the same underlying story events, of MU Draenor.
The question for me is: New gateway of some kind, or does a second Exodar or Xenadar land somewhere? (If the Lightbound are brought over it’ll be a one-off imported army for a patch, not a coherent universe development.)

I still expect a returned Sylvanas to be the spark for Alliance drama when blended with a newly Shadowy Anduin. Alleria already thinks the whispers are telling her to kill her sister, and having Anduin protect Sylvanas is such a cheap road to Alliance Drama.

I do find it rather funny to see people arguing character development as a bar to Blizzard pulling something. They will do whatever the heck they do, the characters don’t matter at all. Bow before the mighty plot, heathens!
Blizzard literally owns the story; whatever the people they hire want to do to it… is done.

(TBH, there’s plot data with no real sense. Arguing this or that small detail from the past as a bar or vindication doesn’t actually say much with everything else slopping around the story.)

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One might also keep in mind that technically the events of WoD occurred some 30 or so years in the alternate past, while the player recruits the AU Mag’har at a point in time contemporary to our modern day, with the new war between AU Mag’har and AU draenei having begun several years prior.

Meaning as far as the Army of the Light in that universe was concerned, when they traveled to that Draenor the Burning Crusade hadn’t been halted by us yet. From their PoV the Legion was still being led by Sargeras and his top lieutenants, and the Legion’s untoppable march across creation was still ongoing. So they may very well have gone there to convert the locals because by driving out the demons together, the AU orcs and draenei in effect turned their Draenor into something our reality never had: a second world in the universe to successfully defeat the Burning Legion. Making them an extremely tempting and unprecedented asset for anyone still waging an active war against Sargeras’ crusade.

Azeroth’s long been full of entrenched native kingdoms and empires that would resist any naaru dimension-ship showing up and just trying to convert everyone, making a Lightbound unification of the whole planet extremely difficult if not outright unfeasible, especially with the Legion ever waiting to capitalize on conflict and widespread warfare to instigate a new invasion. But in the wake of ousting the Legion on AU Draenor, that world was left in a state of being basically dominated by two races: the orcs and the light-worshiping draenei. In the wake of the players’ rampage the ogres, arakkoa, Breakers and Primals don’t seem to have regained the sort of presence they’d had before. In effect providing a planet where half of the controlling presence was a ready-made vector for an ambitious naaru to approach and swiftly have the loyalty of one of the two most powerful races on that world.

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Funny thing: Velen said that Xe’ra wasn’t Light but that life was the Light! Both AU Velen and MU Velen said this!

Spirit(I.E. the Spirit of Life) is being treated as the True Light I do believe. The Chronicle describes the True Light as a force of Living Energy with it’s shards suffusing reality with life I.E. Spirit.

Spirit is the True Light that we should be focused on not the Holy Light which might very well be just a shade of the very Void that clashed with the True Light.

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“Non-villainous Old Gods” is hardly extremely specific. Tellingly, despite claiming there various non-villainous Void entities, you didn’t even name one. Name one good Void entity - not a person using the Void, but a Void entity themselves - if you can. Xe’ra had her flaws, but she wasn’t trying to destroy the universe, which is the entire M.O of the Old Gods.

There’s plenty of other story opportunities; if Blizzard drops the “Light Crusade” story arc like they’ve dropped others in the past, that won’t be the end of WoW.

The Scarlets were wiped out. The Scarlet Brotherhood are in-universe fanboys and conspiracy theorists and those Crimson Pilgrims you mentioned haven’t had their origins officially confirmed. Velonara’s quest wasn’t added to the game or lore, so while the pamphlets count, that quest is not canon and doesn’t count.

By the way, did the Scarlet Crusade work with their historical enemies to fight off the Legion… or did they turtle up until the Death Knights of the Ebon Blade - including Death Knight PCs such as your truly - wiped them out on the way to resurrecting Whitemane?

I know naaru can go Void obviously. I’ve heard the lore about it being a natural part of their life cycle but given how much Blizzard has been playing fast and loose with canon, I’m not sure that “it’s natural” part was still in the lore.

Those cherry-picked quotes you took out of context won’t work because people can just click the links. I didn’t abandon those threads, in fact, the last comment on those threads is mine and no one responded to those comments, so I wasn’t “corrected” like you claim. And I never denied or opposed the Alliance in and of themselves getting the villain bat, so that comment you cherry-picked from Everien doesn’t make me look bad like you think it does.

I only said 3-4 people, I never denied there were others who disagree or that there are people who agree with me. You just strawmanned me again… and this time you also lied about it.

Are you a sockpuppet for Cursewords? Given;

  • Your similar styles of argument - especially on this subject
  • Both your similar comments on similar subjects on similar threads (including your views on shamans and class dynamics)
  • Your shared rude, irrational treatment of me
  • In conjunction with the above, how Cursewords went silent and then after that you started replying to me

I wonder if this “Tammy” account is a sockpuppet for Cursewords, or vica versa and “Cursewords” is a sockpuppet for you, Tammy.

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You are so ignorant, you can’t even get your false accusations straight.

The term is “vice versa”. Small wonder you can not grasp the lore. You try to use terms you can not grasp.

Boy, are you paranoid and delusional. You seem unable to grasp that MANY people can share an opinion on your posts, and that opinion is based on your words.

No. Me and Tammy are not the same. I don’t have any Goblin Characters. I usually use this Character to post, and if I use an Alt to show off a Transmog or something, I say its me.

Anyone can check our battle pets or achieves or what ever.

Maybe you bring that out in people with your blatantly false head canon.

You even fancy yourself having a “hate club” just because you like to post incorrect statements that are frequently proven wrong.

I have no hate for you. If you didn’t post such incorrect tripe, I wouldn’t be correcting you.

I proved your head canon wrong. Other posters did as well.

The Draenei were not “sore” about the Maghar. They saw the Maghar as noble Allies in the aftermath of WoD.

And all you had to reply with was petty juvenile debate team jargon as insults. Likely because you were proven wrong, and you have no facts.

At any rate - just because multiple people share an opinion on the content of your posts does not mean they are sock puppets. Perhaps you poor attitude and poor understanding of the lore brings that response.

She would probably be offended that anyone would think we were the same. She is much more polite.

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As a matter of fact, there was a time in the day when we were all posting at the same time. You can read up and see. Her and my posts were around the same time.

Then you complained that you were being ignored by Tammy :

I actually was trying to be polite and lay off so you could engage more with others - since it was your thread. And you felt ignored.

And then she hit you with the reply you were begging for, lol!

I didn’t feel the need to comment further until you brought me up just now with this false accusation of being sock puppets.

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You’re so obsessively wrong about me on so many levels, I pity you. Thankfully, not everyone who disagrees with me is rude and irrational like you. Voicing a suspicion is not the same as making an accusation, but you responding for Tammy makes you look even more suspect. Lore and character/character development don’t matter to Blizz in the face of plot… and that is poor writing regardless of how anyone feels about it, and I’m calling that out, among other things.

Here’s an olive branch; if Blizzard decides to drop the “Light bad” story angle and retcon it out, that’s not the end of WoW. There’s plenty of other directions the story can go, we don’t even need Light fanaticism to have Alliance bad guys.

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I am on your mind so much, you accuse other posters of being me if I don’t post often enough.

Kind of creepy.

And your suspicions are laughable, and make you look like a fool.

You can read your thread. Tammy was chatting with Solarion while we were arguing. Then you said she was ignoring you. And she let you have it.

You call that an olive branch? It’s so covered in :poop:, I hesitate to ask where you have been keeping it.

How’s this for an olive branch :

WoW can continue with a “Light is Bad” angle. If it happens, it will not be the end of WoW.

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This is some pretty good theorycrafting. By the way I have two questions;

  1. Do you think it’s indicative of poor writing or an agenda that the only time we’re learning about the Light is when it’s getting a villainous portrayal?
  2. Does it seem desperate that the writers are resorting to alternate universes, time travel, sacrificing character development and wielding the villain-bat for some Light-worshipping villains?

Your arguments against me are so weak, Cursewords, you can’t even respond to my full comments, only cherry-picked sentences… and those responses are increasingly nothing more than vitriolic rants. Why don’t you try not responding to me if I bother you so much? And no one else who disagrees with me rants like you do (though Renautus comes close).

A “Light bad” angle being the end of WoW was never my argument, and bad as it is I never saw this “Scarlet Crusade 2: Electric Boogaloo, starring AU Draenei and Naaru” plot as a WoW-killer. It’s like an edgelord version of WoD, and while WoD didn’t kill WoW, for all its merits, WoD is arguably WoW’s worst, most reviled expansion apart from maybe Shadowlands. My argument is that it’s a bad idea and aspects of it - especially the AU Draenor business - are illogical and fly in the face of character development and lore.