What I have said several times now is that I don’t want to debate people on what sort of consequence is best or optimal. Not every sort of topic and discussion.
Thats all I said but you have dedicated a lot of energy to first try to convince me thats thr wrong thing to do. Then you played forum hall monitor trying to find examples of hypocrisy but you failed to that too.
And now that you are in a smaller and smaller box of an argument where you are making a last ditch effort to make it seem like I am trying to debate/argue/discuss with you the first statement. I am not.
All I have been doing is try to make my stance clear and disengage with you.
But you refuse to take a no and a plain simple explanation for an answer.
Will you finally stop harassing me or is this going to keep going?
Even if your claim about me going back and forth was correct, it would also apply to you as well.
I think you’re mistaking grey with nuance; even shades of grey don’t automatically equal nuance. The gap between Blizzard and nuance grows wider with each Patch and Expansion, and has been since Mists.
What do you consider directly stating disdain? Because I have done so repeatedly. I think your repeated accusations of passive-aggressiveness might be an attempt to troll me, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
I explained how it was badly written, including citing out-of-character moments, unanswered questions, poor development shoehorned retcons and railroading. You just refuse to accept that because it shows the flaws, or undermines, the direction you want the story to go.
You keep repeating your headcanon that Xe’ra always planned to forcibly Lightforge Illidan, when the cinematic showed it was a spur-of-the-moment response to Illidan’s unexpected refusal. Also, Alliance Champions worked with Xe’ra too and I don’t think every WoW player considers an act against Illidan an act against themselves… unlike you apparently do.
“Pretty much” holds the same beliefs? Telling that you had to add that little caveat about the Scarlet Onslaught and once again ignore the evidence I presented. Do you think that settling in Northrend is the same as reclaiming Lorderaen? Because they’re clearly not “pretty much the same activities”.
You shouldn’t have tried to strawman me by claiming that endorsing Alleria’s imprisonment means endorsing the imprisonment of loved ones. I never said Turalyon couldn’t appeal to Xe’ra for further leniency for Alleria or that he’d be wrong to do so; he would not be.
Do you think that Alleria should be let off scot-free for consorting with the clearly dangerous Void (Alleria herself states it’s a constant struggle not to succumb to the Void Lord’s whispers, even with Arator as her anchor) and either lying to Xe’ra about it or breaking a promise to her?
I never said Xe’ra could do whatever she wanted… but you avoided my question as to why Xe’ra shouldn’t be able to make the rules on something she made and owns (the Xenedar)?
You did answer my question about family members, and revealed that you’ve got a blind spot there based on your fears for your cousin and assumptions about the legal system in that area.
Tell me about Voodoo in Warcraft yourself; you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you. As for shamanism, that draws from the elemental spirits, who from inception weren’t always good or evil, unlike the Light being retconned to have a bad side. Also, dark shamans refers to when the elemental spirits are corrupted by Fel, so the elementals themselves aren’t necessarily evil there. “Morally grey” stories are older than you think, and have come back into vogue and become overused again in the past few decades.
While I appreciate you explaining your typo about the “Scarlet Inquisition”, I don’t appreciate you trying to strawman me about religious groups. You only further proved my point that the Knights Templar weren’t founding nations themselves, but helping others to do so. As for your accusation of only comparing the Scarlet Ctusade to 20th century Islamic movements, I actually compared them to;
The Knights Templar (a historical Catholic military order disbanded in the 14th century)
The Taliban (a 20th century Islamic military and political movement)
ISIS (a 21st century Islamic military group and self-proclaimed state)
Hardly “a reference to 20th century Islamic movements”. How disingenuous of you, though at least you didn’t try to frame me as an Islamophobe.
The fact that you’re in denial about most of my arguments and repeating the same accusations shows how hollow your claims and accusations are and that the ground is shrinking beneath your feet, just as it is in your exchanges with Smallioz here.
Funny that you call Calia a “hamfisted white savior” trope considering the Forsaken are nearly all just undead white people, and how both Calia and the Forsaken are (almost entirely for the latter) natives of Lorderaen.
You’ve made 10+ threads of a similar type in around the same number of months, and I don’t even respond to most of them. Our post histories show clearly that you’re far more prone to extended back and forths than I am.
That things are repetitive is largely because you make the same threads over and over, making the same bad arguments, all with the same people, only to eventually abandon them and create new ones where you make the same bad arguments again. Inevitably, you’ll leave this thread and do it all over again.
Smalloz stated that they had no desire to continue their exchange with me. I’ve abided by it unless they express a desire otherwise. You have not expressed any desire to end the discussion, and so we continue.
A direct accusation is not being passive aggressive. Again you show that you don’t actually understand the meanings of words, even as you try to dictate how others use them.
I’m not mistaking nuance for being morally gray either. Blizzard has been moving away from both for some time now, which is a large part of why the narrative has gotten relatively worse over the expansions. And making the Light a uniquely benevolent force in the setting and employing all kinds of bad writing to try and present previous actions as legitimate only going to make the narrative even worse.
Neither have I ever denied Blizzard’s writing is flawed. But it’s not flawed flawed because of the existence of nuance or moral grayness in the narrative, but rather because of the increasing lack of it. I actually want Blizzard to write better stories.
You, however, just want Blizzard to protect your idealized view of the Light because you conflate it with your beliefs about Christianity and authority. That’s why you will support/employ badly written stories, out-of-character moments, unanswered questions, poor development shoehorned retcons and railroading if it supports that goal.
It’s why your proposal for a “better storyline” didn’t actually include much of a proposal, and only after months did you offer a poorly thought out alternative that wasn’t actually any better. It’s why you give a pass to other examples of Blizzard employing all kinds of retcons, timeskips, and other things you decry as bad writing techniques when they’re supportive of your idea of the Light as benevolent. It’s why you’ve made disdainful references to “edgelords”, “/ratheism” when speaking about characters opposed to Xe’ra. You also make more comparisons between the villainous Scarlets and Islam (which you stated you not approve of) than the Crusaders on which they’re so clearly based. And when it’s pointed out that other religions and cosmic forces in WoW have been used as antagonists in the narrative, you deny it’s true or play ignorant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td0pUwrBWjc&ab_channel=WorldofWarcraft&loop=0 It’s a fact that Xe’ra never does anything else before trying to Lightforge Illidan upon first meeting him, all in order to fulfill her prior established vision.You’re the one operating out of their own headcanon; basing everything on what you would prefer Xe’ra to be, rather than what she is.
Yes, pretty much. They’re attacking the enemy on their home turf as part of their campaign to protect Lordaeron because that enemy struck such a huge blow against them in Lordaeron. The Scarlet Crusade also fought Forsaken in Desolace and tried to recruit in Stormwind. They aren’t, by definition, restricted to Lordaeron. And they wear the same gear, use the same tactics, employ many of the same individual officers, etc.
I’m not strawmanning you. You’re still criticizing my willingness to defy authority decisions I disagree with while arguing why Xe’ra’s decisions was justified and how Turalyon was correct not to object.
I am willing to and have defied authority when it’s unjust- and not just on behalf of my family, but also on behalf of others. This is not a “blind spot”. Quite the opposite. It’s not being blindly obedient to/supportive of the decisions of the state even when I disagree with them.
Turalyon did not defy Xe’ra in her decision. All he did plead for mercy in the face of an unknown punishment, only to ultimately go along with and even voice support for the unjust sentence after it was delivered. He didn’t even ask for further leniency after the decision was made.
Alleria should’ve been let off scot-free because she didn’t consort with the clearly dangerous Void. She consorted with the clearly safe Nexus Walker and only ever used the Void in a benign way. Alleria never promised she wouldn’t use the void, so she didn’t break any promise to Xe’ra.
It was unjust for Xe’ra to lock up Alleria for indefinite time/life simply because she (Xe’ra) personally hates the Void and is so self righteous that she refuses to work with it or even let it be known that nauru enter a Void state as part of their life cycle. And it’s because Xe’ra made an unjust rule that denied her a powerful ally and served no purpose than to fulfill her self righteousness, that she should not have been able to make that decision without experiencing defiance. Whether she owns the ship or not.
The burden of proof is indeed on me. But if you already know and agree with me about these facts, having me explain them would be redundant. So first, you need to stop playing coy and admit that you do/don’t know of the instances wherein Voodoo has threatened the world in WoW.
Dark shamans do not require Fel. The Tanuka and Horde under the leadership of Garrosh are examples. The Dark Shamans of Garrosh’s Horde were famously against the use of Fel.
Also, if you’re still going with the “used more often = shouldn’t be used anymore” argument, the fact remains that morally black and white stories are even older, never actually went away, and have been used even more often than “morally gray” throughout history.
I didn’t call you an Islamaphobe. I pointed out how you actually don’t know much about Islam, that you keep drawing comparisons between the Scarlets and those groups by leaving out the more obvious parallels to the Christian Crusades. Like how you tried to compare the two by claiming Islamists specifically are after territory, when this was a goal of the Crusaders as well.
You were the one that eventually just up and admitted that you don’t approve of Islam and worry that I’m somehow using that fact against you.
The more important truth is that you’re simply wrong about a lot of things.
For example, ISIS was founded in 1999-which was exactly in the 20th century, making it a 20th century movement.
First, you need to stop trying to misrepresent me (such as your false claim my opposition is solely due to supposedly having an idealized view of the Light and conflating it with my real-life beliefs) and just stick to arguments and counterarguments, and I will also strive to limit myself to arguments and counterarguments.
You’ve brought those threads up in this one and used them to strawman me, as our post histories clearly show. Even if I was more prone to it than you, the fact remains you’ve still done it.
What would you consider “expressing a desire to continue the discussion”? I asked for your definition of passive-aggressive in case it’s different from the actual definition. I know what passive-aggressive means, but I can’t read your mind.
How Blizzard is moving away from nuance… finally, something we agree on. Benevolent doesn’t equal foolproof and you can have nuance among a completely good or completely evil group (such as the lawful, neutral and chaotic axes on DnD alignment chart).
Flaws in Blizzard’s writing are more due to lack of continuity (including incessant retcons) and assuming that zig-zagging character alignments and personalities counts as “morally grey”. Citing things like edgelords and r/atheism are because I noticed the parallels and similar levels of quality – a word I use loosely - in their writing.
That cinematic doesn’t prove Xe’ra planned to Lightforge him by force beforehand. Here’s everything they say to each other there before the Lightforging;
Xe’ra: “Illidan. From birth, the light in your eyes held such promise for the future.”
Illidan Stormrage: “I sacrificed that birthright long ago.”
Xe’ra: “Do you not wish to reclaim what was lost? To be whole again?”
Illidan Stormrage: “The Legion’s end… is all I seek.”
Xe’ra: “My child. You have given so much, for so little. Your true potential, your redemption lies before you. Let go of your shattered form and embrace the light’s power.”
Illidan Stormrage: “I’ve traded my freedom for power before.”
Xe’ra: “The prophecy… must be fulfilled.”
Her words “Do you not wish to reclaim what was lost? To be whole again?” are proof Xe’ra wasn’t expecting him to be unwilling before then. This shows what Xe’ra was, not what you apparently prefer her to be.
I never said the Scarlet Crusade was restricted to Lorderaen. Explain why the Scarlet Onslaught’s founder Brigitte Abbendis said “The Scarlet Crusade is no more, long live the Scarlet Onslaught”, have a class even the Scarlet Crusade didn’t - Death Knights, send no resources back to Lorderaen and they make no attempt to initiate contact with the Scarlet Crusade back in Lorderaen?
You stop saying I conflate the Light with my religious beliefs, and I’ll stop saying you conflate authority with the legal system you fear threatens your cousin, deal?
I think you’re trying to troll me with those repeated accusations at this point. I already explained about Turalyon, you’re just repeating a debunked argument at this point. By the way, Alleria herself attempted to reassure Turalyon after Xe’ra compromised, which factored into why he didn’t pursue the matter further.
I want you to think about the answers to these questions; why was Alleria consorting with Locus Walker at all? Would she have sought out or worked with Locus Walker if she wasn’t using the Void? Were all those instances of her dealing with the whispers of the Void by herself and during Locus-Walker’s lessons fanfiction? Think about it.
While it turns out that Alleria didn’t break a promise or lie to Xe’ra, think about these questions;
Why did Xe’ra hate the Void?
Why would anyone hate the Void?
How was it an unjust ruling given the relevance of the answers for the first two questions?
How is that self-righteous given the relevance of answers for the first three?
I don’t know of those instances with WoW Voodoo, please tell me. By the way, my ignorance of instances wherein Voodoo has threatened the entire world in WoW does not mean I’m ignorant in general, so don’t try to frame me as such.
I double-checked and found out Dark Shamans used Decay, not Fel, to twist the elemental spirits, so let me correct myself there; dark shamans refers to when the elemental spirits are corrupted by Decay, so the elementals themselves aren’t necessarily evil there.
I’m not going the “shouldn’t be used anymore” route for those kind of morally grey stories, I am going the “this is a bad way to do it, so don’t” and “it’s cliché” routes.
I never said you called me an Islamophobe; I thanked you for not doing that. But I did not leave out the Christian Crusades and you know it, since I repeatedly cited the Knights Templar alongside the Taliban and ISIS, and the mistake about when ISIS was founded doesn’t change that.
I just want to say that you comparing groups like the Scarlet Crusade to islamists is not good. They are based purely on Crusaders, who did horrible things in the name of their religion. You comparing them to radical islamists, despite their Christian motifs, shows that you doubt that fundamentalist Christians could ever reach the level of such islamists, when they can and have.
As far as I know, there are zero groups in WoW based on islamic fundamentalists or terrorists. The title “caliph” is used twice, however. Historically, many caliphs and other islamic rulers were anything but religious fundamentalists. The Syrian poet Al Ma’arri, who was openly atheist, was allowed to express himself in islamic states. Could you find such openness in the Crusader States?
First, I did not leave out the Christian Crusades and you know it, since I repeatedly cited the Knights Templar too.
Second, Al Ma’arri was not an Islamic ruler, he was no atheist but actually a deist (there are non-religious people who believe in a god) and there’s a reason he lived in seclusion. So citation needed about Islamic rulers and Caliphs.
Finally, how do you define Crusader States? The Crusader States, aka Outremer , were four Roman Catholic realms in the Middle East that lasted from 1098 to 1291; they were the County of Edessa, the Principality of Antioch, the County of Tripoli and the Kingdom of Jerusalem, which had multifaith populations. Could you find such evidence to indicate they were intolerant of this criticism?
For someone who calls themselves a Christian, you’re not doing a good job of loving as Christ commanded (he said to love others, even their enemies… and look at how you keep disingenuously treating me).
I wasn’t questioning the attempted Lightforging was done by force. Tammy claimed it was pre-mediated, and I proved it was spur-of-the-moment, that’s what I was saying.
It can still be pre-meditated though. She just gave Illidan a choice. But given her whole “the prophecy must be fulfilled” etc, she would’ve done it regardless of his answer.
I did not accuse you of leaving out anything. I am simply saying that you should not compare Christian-based groups to islamists. It shows your bias against a specific religion. The Scarlet Crusade has no basis in Islam, so there is no reason your mind should go to Islam.
I never said he was a ruler. He was a famous skeptic poet. The Islamic rulers at the time allowed his ideas to be propagated. Some sites say he was an atheist. Another I found says that he was probably a deist. I brought him up to show that not all caliphs and islamic rulers were fundamentalists.
The inquisition was well known for its efforts against heresy. I admit I cannot find such intolerance in those states specifically. But, was there any such openly skeptic poet in Christendom at that time?
I have never revealed my religious beliefs on these forums, nor do I wish to at the moment. You must have me confused for someone else. Where was I being disingenous towards you?
You are being disingenuous by accusing me of being biased against one specific religion when I compared them to groups from two different religions. The behavior of the Scarlet Crusade is also reminiscent of the Taliban and ISIS; unintended or not (need author statement to confirm either way), there are similarities.
Bringing up Al Ma’arri looks like a non-sequitur after talking about Islamic rulers. The first Inquisition didn’t appear until 1184 in France, which wasn’t a Crusader State (since you haven’t told me how define Crusader States yet). Also, despite popular media portrayals, the majority of people convicted of heresy weren’t executed or rendered destitute.
Regarding your beliefs, I admit I confused you with Denona.
Maybe he’s not being disingenous by calling out your islamaphobia. He’s being honest, as a muslim.
Baal did the same thing in your first thread.
Have you possibly considered that you have islamaphobic biases and people notice these micro-aggressions?
No one’s painting you in bad faith, we are simply pointing out your biases, and micro-agressions and sometimes reacting aggressively. That’s what micro-aggressions do, they provoke.
You highkey believe everything that doesn’t share the same values as you is “evil.” That in itself is in bad faith. There’s no way to take you in good faith at this point. This is your villian origin story my dude.
If this thread is anything, it is a collection of posts where you seem to just lash out, and you aren’t even sure at who. Like when you thought me and Tammy were the same person.
You are not wrong. A good person would freely choose to admit when they’re wrong.
A good person would also be willing to self-reflect and perhaps ponder why numerous people all seem to have the same opinion of that good person’s behavior. That good person might be willing to accept that their behavior has not come across how they intended and be willing to own up to their mistakes, to stop projecting those mistakes on to others, and to make changes where necessary.
Can you be a good person? Can you self-reflect and maybe accept that you are not coming across how you think you are? That maybe all these naysayers aren’t wrong?
I accidentally attacked you instead of someone else doesn’t make a you a better or even a good person. You have this ugly habit of taking every little thing as a personal attack. Even things that have nothing to do with you personally.