Well I am tapping out until something relevant is said. All tammy is doing is having a temper tantrum.
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While I admit it would have been better if I actually put my hypothetical Light expansion in the topic initially, the repetitiveness of their replies lately makes me think you might be right about the tantrum (for all that Tammy claims it’s justified, then projects that onto me).
You accused me of only criticizing time skips, so I shared a quote of mine from that thread which wasn’t a criticism, refuting your accusation. I also think you’re just salty that I proved the Mag’har recruitment scenario had a badly written time skip.
How do you define passive-aggressive? You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means. I also wonder whether that accusation of yours is attempted trolling or you’re lashing out because I hurt your feelings. You claim you came because you thought I felt ignored by you… as if you care what I think lol
I outlined my expansion idea; just because your values judgement doesn’t match mine does not change the fact that I still gave it. In fact, part of my point was even my bare bones, first-draft-script-level idea is better than the “eeeevul Light!” shtick Blizzard’s gunning for with Yrel and AU Naaru.
Trust regarding Xe’ra wasn’t invoked outside of Turalyon, the Army of the Light and maybe Velen. How were “we” betrayed? Did you ever trust that character prior to what happened between her and Illidan?
They’re not a name-only splinter group when the founder officially renounced them, they employ Death Knights - which the Scarlet Crusade does not, and they’ve abandoned the main mission of the Scarlet Crusade. This too has been pointed out several times, with links and in-game content but you’re in denial and moving the goalposts.
I never said the state is always right just because it’s the state. I’m not authoritarian. I am willing to call out authority figures and have done so. Your claim that I must accept abuse by dint of authority is a strawman (not to mention, how is abuse of power defined – there are criminals who try to play the victim when getting arrested while caught committing crimes); textbook contrarian tactic. And find me a quote where I endorse life sentences for non-violent crimes.
By the way, are you aware that when you said this;
That paragraph is incoherent and sounds like you’re saying that people have threatened to lock up your loved ones forever for not committing crimes. Since I don’t think that’s what you mean, could you explain this?
Turalyon defied Xe’ra’s attempt to harm Alleria, you just keep spouting your headcanon that Xe’ra never intended to harm her. I have explained this to you several times but you don’t get it.
The refusal to leave is trespassing, but not following those rules beforehand is not mere trespassing (what evidence do you have that such rules are “arbitrary”?)
I haven’t repeated the same arguments in threads for awhile. But you keep repeating the same debunked accusations against me. I have explained this to you several times but you don’t get it. I’m learning quite a bit about you and your outlook from this exchange; the prognosis is not good.
You claimed that Voodoo has threatened the world in WoW, but how? The burden of proof is on you. When has shamanism threatened the world? Not every air or fire elemental fell in lockstep behind Deathwing in Cata. And the water and earth elemental leaders opposed his plans. Or did shamans become limited to using only one element when I wasn’t looking?
You use my disapproval and real-life religious beliefs for an ad hominem dismissal of my arguments, and nearly everything else you say against me is either cherry-picking or sophistry in the form of strawman arguments.
Funny that you say you paid attention. Was it like when you “paid attention” by accusing me of overlooking historical Christian references because I also compared the Scarlet Crusade to Islam…
When I’d actually also made a comparison to the Knights Templar.
What theocratic kingdoms did the Knights Templar supposedly found? And don’t tell me to find out for myself; you made the claim, the burden of proof is on you.
Your biases are at least as blatant as mine, and if there is any passive-aggressive from either of us, I think it lies in mockingly repeating each other’s wording in places. I think your repetitive strawmanning of my arguments and ad hominem attacks is an attempt to unbalance me, either for trolling or a tactic to try and “win” the argument.
All this is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, and I don’t know which of us is which.
Will this hopefully be your last reply to me or are you going to keep going?
Questioning what the consequences actually accomplish is arguing about is arguing about what constitutes appropriate consequences.
You do indeed do a lot of debating about what does/doesn’t constitute Sylvanas’ appropriate consequences for someone with no stated desire to debate it. And you’re definitely not expressing any happiness at what Blizzard might possibly do despite you claiming you would.
You asked us to “make of it what you will”. I made of it what I would, and you responded with dismissive snark. I too was ready to end it. But then you couldn’t even let 24 hours go by before proving me right.
It’s okay to care about what happens to Sylvanas. You don’t have to try and put up a front here to try and convince people you aren’t as invested as many of the rest of us.
I won’t push it anymore, though. There is a difference between self-contradictory attempts to try and create some emotional distance from an admittedly lackluster narrative in order to avoid disappointment and Thadeus making 10 threads featuring the same handful of bad arguments, only try and play as if there’s something amiss about other people.
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The numbers say you’re wrong.
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/u/Tammy-wyrmrest-accord/summary
Vs
As of right now, there’s only 2 people on the forums I’ve ever replied to more than 40+ times with a max in the 60’s. You, despite having only been visiting for around ⅔ as long as I have, already have at least 6 people with whom you’ve gone back and forth at least 40+ times. And even one you’ve gone back and forth with over 100 times! You’ve also replied more times to me on the forums than I have to you. I also only have around 800 posts in that time frame while you’ve accrued over 1.9k in around ⅔ the time.
You spend way more time going back and forth with the same handful of people on this forum than I do. This is in line with your earlier admission earlier in the thread about how you like to try and get the last word in.
I am not biased against any one religion over others. I’m not biased against the Light. I’m just aware of basic elements of WoW’s story, their sources in various media and basic high school facts. These facts don’t agree with your position that Chrisianity and Light be treated as uniquely superior in media in general or WoW in particular. Or your claim that a hypothetical Light Crusade is an attack on either any more than it is an attack on any other religion in the real world or WoW.
I do not make a habit of using passive language like “I suspect” or “You believe” or “probably”, and then try to backpedal and claim I didn’t actually suggest these things the way you do. Rather, I use active language like, “I know” and “you said”, “you admitted”. I also base my arguments on what I know and have evidence for, unlike you, who make many more arguments phrased as questions or rooted in your own and what you hope is others’ ignorance.
I only repeat myself because you keep repeating the same bad arguments. And I keep providing definitions because you don’t know what various words mean. And I keep educating you on basic WoW lore and high school history because you refuse to educate yourself on such simple things while trying to speak on them. I don’t strawman you either. You’ve had months to behave differently, but have refused to do so. This thread is living testament to pretty much every bad argument you’ve ever been able to conjure.
I can’t tell you when my last post in this thread will be, as I can’t see the future. All I do know is that barring some incident, you’ll inevitably create another thread in which you make a bunch of the same bad arguments.You’ve been doing it consistently for the better half of a year. You want people to keep going back and forth with you’d stop making the threads in which to continue the arguments anew.
The title of your thread was “Are Time Skips Lazy Writing?” (a negative bent right off the bat) and only speculated on it’s negative aspects, never once actually considering the good ones. You’ve done nothing but criticize the use of time skips here.
Passive-aggressive behavior is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of openly addressing them, which is how you addressed time skips in your OP.
You claimed I was ignoring you. It’s not a feeling I had. Again, you indirectly express disagreement without openly addressing it.
Not that you don’t occasionally say things directly that also happen to just be wrong. Like below…
You didn’t even give a “bare bones, first-draft-script-level idea”. You eventually, and only under criticism over a month or two later, barebones pitch. A pitch which -by your own admission- wasn’t actually well thought out.
Your poorly thought idea was not better than what Bizzard’s been gunning for than Yrel and AU nauru and your poorly thought out idea relies on more retcons, cliches and bad writing tropes than they have. That’s why it’s not a better idea than a hypothetical Light Crusade.
So now that you’ve admitted that she did betray the trust of Turalyon and the Army of the Light and maybe Vele, there’s the fact that she also betrayed the trust of Illidan and the Horde/Alliance Champion when she had us retrieve the Illidari, only to suddenly her plan included forcibly transmogrify him against his consent.
You complain about how repetitive I am, but keep repeating the same bad arguments with no new evidence.
The Scarlet Onslaught splinter group exists as a “splinter group” in name only and even that flimsy distinction is contradicted by the fact that they’re functionally the same as the Scarlet Crusade. The Crusade has been willing to employ Undead, Worgen, and other people they disapprove of and has fought beyond the bounds of Lordaeron, and the Onslaught is in Northrend specifically to take the fight to the forces that struck a blow against them back in Lordaeron. I’ve maintained from the outset that there is no functional difference in the threats provided by any of the Scarlet groups, whether they be Onslaught, Crusade, Brotherhood, or other.You’ve been the one trying to take functionally meaningless differences to make it seem like the Scarlets are completely opposed to one another.
In an attempt to try and justify why Turalyon was correct to abide by Xe’ra’s unjust decision to imprison Alleria indefinitely/for life, you asked me if I’d do any different if a loved one of mine was sentenced to a crime.
I explained that I would defy the state because I think it’s wrong to lock up people up indefinitely/life based on unjust and/or non-violent crime. I explained how I would not support the state’s decision. I explained how I would continue to argue against the decision of the state and even violate its other dictates in support of my loved ones. If I did not, I could be considered to have defied them.
You continued by insisting that that they (Alleria and hypothetical loved one) are guilty because Xe’ra/state “confirm” them as such.I pointed out that in this instance, the state is wrong and its law unjust and said I would still defy them, especially in the case of nonviolent instances being met with indefinite/life impositionent.You said this position hurt my argument, and in your incredulousness, listed several non-violent crimes worthy indefinite/life sentences asking if I still agree. I did and do.
You insisted that the Xe’ra/the state would be justified in the actions, even when they are wrong, because it’s their ship and their authority should be followed. You even argued that the state’s authority is “flawed yet necessary”, which I disagreed with.
When Xe’ra sentenced his loved one to indefinite/life imprisonment without having committed any crime, especially no violent crime, Turalyon supported Xe’ra. And you stated you’d do the same as Turalyion if the state dealt with one of your loved ones in a similar manner by the state. Turalyon did not defy Xe’ra and neither would you defy the state.
Your whole argument is not just about why you think Turalyon was right in not defying Xe’ra, you tried to make it by turning it into a metaphor about how we shouldn’t defy state authorities, even when we think they’re unjust.
Is this yet another example of you being ignorant of major elements in WoW and needing me to explain them to you? Because, like below regarding high school history facts about the Crusades, I want to first hear you admit that you just don’t know, but that you also have no intention of actually educating yourself.
If you don’t consider it an attack on religion if Blizzards shows differing opinions and positions among the authority figures and practitioners. Therefore, an expansion in which Xe’ra being different from other naruu, sides with some bad Light users and gets opposed by other Light users is not an attack on religion like you previously claimed.
It’s not ad hominem when you yourself admit you’re basing things on your own biases against other religions and an unwillingness to educate yourself on various topics.
I stated the Templars sought to establish theocratic kingdoms, not that they were successful in founding any, which makes them like the Scarlet Crsuade. You left that fact out during your comparison to the Scarlets so you could instead compare them to an organization that didn’t even exist when the Scarlets were originally written.
If you were actually open to educating yourself instead of relying on me to do it for you, you’d have learned that the Knights Templar fought to take Jerusalem in order to establish it as a Chrsitian Kingdom alongside the other Crusader states.
https://www.worldhistory.org/Third_Crusade/
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I specifically referred to your conduct towards me when talking to Smallioz; my conduct and anyone else’s doesn’t change what you’ve said and how often you’ve said it. And at least, unlike you so far, I can admit I’m someone who likes to get the last word in (and try to fight against that).
When I said biases, I wasn’t referring to religion or your stance on it in real-life, I was actually referring to the story and our opinions of it. You mistakenly assumed I meant religion in that paragraph of my last comment.
Disregarding your lie of omission regarding my arguments, you called my direct criticisms and mockery of you “passive-aggressive” when you clearly know it doesn’t fit the definition; why do you do that? You have made strawman of my arguments several times, such as trying to frame me as using Turalyon as a metaphor for blind obedience to the state. Your latest comment is a microcosm of every bad argument you’ve made against me in this thread.
I also suspect you’ll make the same debunked accusations anytime I make a thread where something Light-related is mentioned, even if it’s not the focus of the thread.
Passive-aggressive or not, the fact remains that I’d proven how badly written that time skip in the Mag’har recruitment scenario was. And no amount of accusations and quote-mining from you or anyone else will change that. Plus, even my bare bones pitch still has less retcons and bad writing than what Blizzard put out.
For Xe’ra to betray Illidan’s trust, Illidan had to trust her… which he never did, not even when he met her in the Illidan novel as the “Elder Naaru” and she saved him from Kil’jaeden. And I said the Army of the Light to be generous – only Turalyon expressed an expectation from Xe’ra that she didn’t meet (Lothraxion didn’t even have a quote to react to Xe’ra’s death - even Veeresa, Boros and Arator had one); there’s no confirmed indicator that Xe’ra violated any obligation she had to them apart from keeping naaru’s Void form secret from Turalyon (anything else is speculation, headcanon or paranoia at this point). You being in denial about the Scarlet Onslaught being a splinter group doesn’t help your case, either.
You used a lot of words to build that strawman about my stance and Turalyon. I’ll destroy it with one sentence. A hypothetical endorsement of Turalyon blindly obeying Xe’ra would not also be an endorsement of not defying state authority.
As for the rest of what you said; your explanation of what you’d do regarding a loved one ignored the scenario I presented, because you keep projecting your drug-dealing cousin onto them, and let your fears and assumptions about what would happen to them if the police caught them cloud your judgement. You even ignored or forgot when I said Xe’ra’s disapproval was reasonable though the sentence was excessive in a previous comment.
You didn’t prove or explain how Alleria’s Void use wasn’t a serious crime, how or why the state’s authority isn’t necessary (are you an anarchist?) or why Xe’ra shouldn’t be in charge on her own ship; what you did instead is called Bulverism.
Explain to me when Voodoo has threatened the world in WoW. I don’t know but if I didn’t want to educate myself, I wouldn’t be engaging with you and fact-checking you.
You almost had a point when you brought up shamanism… but shamanism didn’t get a bad side retconned into it, unlike the Light. Plus, there’s precedent from other Blizzard games and how they like to recycle character types and story arcs… and this “Xe’ra and Lightbound” business is a badly-written rehash of the Tal’drim Protoss and Malthael’s Reapers type stories. All the ways Xe’ra alone is a badly written character could make its own thread.
Side note, when you’ve used my character as an excuse to dismiss my arguments, that’s Ad Hominem. Getting back on topic, who are the “Scarlet Inquistion” you referred to here?
I also compared the Scarlet Crusade to the Taliban, who did exist when the Scarlet Crusade were written.
The Knights Templar weren’t trying to establish a Christian kingdom themselves, but aiding nobles and royals seeking to do so, as stated in the link you shared. And the Taliban comparison still stands; check out the Taliban’s actions and goals in Afghanistan from 1996 – 2001 (7 - 3 years before the release of Vanilla WoW) and compare those to the Scarlet Crusade’s goals, or do you want to call me an Islamophobe for pointing those facts out?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban#Islamic_Emirate_of_Afghanistan_(1996%E2%80%932001)
I’m starting to suspect Thadeus and Tammy are both Thadeus, and this is just an elaborate hoax he uses to boost his own threads.
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We’re not the same person. Ironically, I think Tammy would find your theory offensive (Also ironically, I’m not offended despite my disapproval of Tammy’s position, actions and attitude).
By the way, if I used sockpuppets, my comments and threads would have even more upvotes.
No way. Tammy’s not as hyper-defensive. No offense, Thadeus. You’ve admitted as much, in this very thread. This is not an attack, just a reminder of a truth you have already confirmed true. Please, do not take this as some sort of insult, as that is not my intention.
I was just joking.
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Light crusade is good. THen we can finally kill Yrel. Wanted to get rid of that fanatic mongrel ever since the Mag’har recruitment. If Blizzard gives me this all my wishes will be forfilled.
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What about Liadrin? She’s a Horde Light worshipper.
No its actually identifying the consequence. Its confirming its existence or pointing out its abscence.
Its not debating which consequence is superior than the other.
Otherwise you could argue the non existence of a consequence is the consequence which defeats my whole original post that there should be a consequence rather than none.
Its pretty simple. So anyway whats up with you playing hall monitor here? Taking time out of your day to misunderstand what I said on purpose to prove a point on the internet?
Liadrin is a good girl. Unlike Yrel she didn’t try to enslave an entire planet. Know the difference.
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Calia and Turalyon haven’t enslaved planets either (not even planets of people who tried to genocide them first, unlike Yrel), what about them?
Erevien would make a different reason to kill them. Most likely they are filthy humans or they are alliance characters in general (even though Calia is a horde character now 
)
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Calia is a filthy alliance puppet who’s main goal is to keep the Forsaken out of Lordaeron. I long for the day where we get the chance to kill her before she can do any lasting damage to the undead themes and identity. Seriously she should not be Horde. The Forsaken have good character who can lead the race without any hamfisted white savior trope in their ranks.
That our back and forth has continued this long is more a reflection of you having a greater tendency to go back and forth over the same topics with multiple people for extended periods. Our post histories reflect this.
Oh, well in that case. Yes, I am biased in preferring a story with more nuance to one that’s more black and white. Especially when the level of nuance is one we’ve already seen established in he franchise.
The title of your thread was “Are Time Skips Lazy Writing?” (a negative bent right off the bat) and only speculated on it’s negative aspects, never once actually considering the good ones. You’ve done nothing but criticize the use of time skips here.
Just like in this thread you claim you claimed was about expansions that would better than a Light Crusade is actually just a thread for you to complain about a hypothetical Light Crusade expansion to the point where you’re now admitting you didn’t even actually put much thought into a better alternative or even a good one by your own standards.
You try to attack things without stating your disdain directly. Passive aggressiveness. Again, When have you ever challenged me on the proper definition/use of a word and actually been correct? You were wrong about “Conviction”, “brotherhood”, and “righteous anger” as well.
And again, your suspicions are wrong. Not only have I not responded to all the threads you’ve made repeating these bard arguments, I haven’t been following you around into new ones to argue the point anew, like your anti-time skip thread.
You have not proven how badly it was written. You’ve only complained about it because you would have preferred if they had retroactively made Xe’ra the good guy or given what you consider a justifiable reason why the Mag’har deserve the genocide Yrel and Xe’ra are perpetuating against them.
Illidan and the Horde Champion both willingly worked with Xe’ra, trusting that it wasn’t her plan to try to forcibly transmogrify him. Both approached her and worked with her willingly up until her betrayal.
I’m not in denial about the fact that a claimed splinter group that wears the same uniform, engages in pretty much all the same activities, holds pretty much all the same beliefs as and for all intents and purposes functions narratively the same as another group narratively is a distinction without a difference.
Obeying Xe’ra and obeying the state are indeed not the same thing. You made the same as part of a terrible argument where you tried to justify Turalyon going along with Xe’ra by asking me what I’d do if I disagreed with the imprisonment of one of my loved ones. You accuse me of projecting when you quite literally asked me what I would do if it were my family members. That can’t possibly be answered without actually thinking about my family members.
I’m not strawmanning you, as you’re making the same authoritarian arguments again!
You make the argument that both Alleria and our loved ones deserve to be locked up and we should accept and support it because authority is authority, which you also argued earlier was necessary. I disagreed and stated we should defy unjust authority when they do unjust things. You ask why Xe’ra or the state should be defied even when “it’s their ship” and they should have the right to do whatever they want?.
They should be defied because in these examples you’re giving because they’re committing unjust acts and unjustly sentencing people to indefinite/life sentences.
Alleria doesn’t need to prove she’s innocent to not be locked up indefinitely/life. Guilty unttil proven innocent is not how justice works. Instead, Xe’ra needed to show Alleria actually did harm, which she did not, as Alleria made a powerful ally against the Legion in the form of the Nexus Walker and actually saved lives using the Void.
Also, to engage in Bulverism, I’d need to think you’re wrong simply because of your motives or how you identify. On the contrary, I think you’re wrong because the things you say are incorrect and the arguments you make are bad.
So you do want to educate yourself! Excellent! Look up “Warcraft and Vooodoo” in Google and read up on it’s history in the setting, particularly since WoW started.
Shamanism was originally sold in WC3 as the actual good religion Orcs used to practice before they were duped and corrupted by the Legion. The Tauren who also practiced/taught it were similarly portrayed as gentle giants. It was only later that Blizzard introduced Elementals that threatened the world and villains like “Dark Shamans”.
But hey, if you don’t think any of that actually constitutes Blizzard attacking religion, then you obviously don’t mind if naruu and the Light get the same treatment.
And if your argument is once again circling back to what is/isn’t bad writing or cliche, then having Xe’ra and the Light being uniquely benevolent forces in the setting and involving them in a Light vs Void storyline would be even more cliche and rehashed and also going to be mucked up with bad writing.
No, I’ve used your incorrect statements and bad arguments to show that you are wrong. Also, “Scarlet Inquisition” is an understandable typo in reference to the “Spanish Inquisition”, considering we’ve been using “Scarlet” an awful lot in our exchanges.
The Knights Templar, and other Crusaders, were doing what they did on behalf of the Catholic Church. And all of this was centuries before the Taliban existed. It’s very disingenuous to act like the “Scarlet Crusaders” in red and white tabards, wielding pre-industrial weapons as part of their effort to retake a kingdom as part of their crusade are actually a reference to 20th century Islamic movements.
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So would you like to have this back and forth or not? Because you previously said you didn’t want to, but now you’re go asking me more questions. I have the answers and will gladly address your statements, but only if you actually will admit you want me to.
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Either way, next expansion is the deciding factor to my continued play of this game, shadowlands marks 2/3 strikes for me, and after what they’ve done to the helm of domination recently… If the concept of the next expansion doesn’t blow me socks off then I’m gone.
Its bad enough that retail cant seem to hold my attention for more than 15 minutes tops, let alone this entire games story feels like its living in its own fanfiction.
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