Gollum/Smeagol types away furiously at his keyboard
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I don’t criticize the validity of black and white stories to exist. I do criticize your argument that other options are invalid and that grayness can’t continue to be explored regarding elements of the Light as it exists in Warcraft.
And yes, a significant amount of people who write or support those stories tend to be a certain type: That type is human beings.
And yes, it is a very common passive aggressive tactic to state you “suspect something” in an attempt to introduce an idea in lieu of any convincing evidence because you’re trying to avoid making a claim that you’d have to actually support.
Nope. From the outset, I tied Turalyon as villain/antagonist (and much any Light Crusade expansion) to Xe’ra and pointed out how this leaves a potential out by breaking his link to Xe’ra. You’re the one arguing that if he’s going to be a villain, that he just be a villain.
Machines are not beings. And the Old Gods made the Aqir from the preexisting material of the world that the Titans had previously ordered.
No more than ten? You don’t need me to count for you. You can give us an actual number. Tell us how many you’ve made in the no more nine months you’ve been making on these forums.
I never claimed “the Light’s relationship with conviction isn’t 1-for-1 ”. I said the Light feeds on conviction, which you argued was technically incorrect for several days, only to finally admit it was indeed technically correct.
And there lies no substantive difference in fighting the Scourge on Northrend vs fighting the Scourge of Lordaeron and elsewhere? Because the Crusade never restricted themselves to fighting Scourge only in Lordaeron. The Onslaught, like most all of the Scarlets, are self contradicting extremists.
I am not leaving it out. It doesn’t exist. Because you just passively aggressively cast your “suspicions” on everyone who liked the post.
Why ask me to cite sources to reexamine my own argument when you already know and agree that I’m right about something?
And the Scarlet Crusade numbers have dwindled again. There are still members of the Crusaders around, along with all the other Scarlets
Yes, there are many more things that you’ve claimed to believe are strange and/or wrong that turn out to be anything but.
Having the Light themed characters being portrayed as all-benevolant, even as they do stuff like violate peoples’ bodily autonomy and commit genocide is also cliche. Not just cliche, but pretty disgusting.
Acting like their villainous actions are actually non-viallinous because you don’t want them to be the bad guy isn’t nuance.
If you don’t think popularity/unpopularity has anything to do with quality, then why’d you try to argue against the idea of a Light Crusade expansion on the basis of popularity/unpopularity?
And again, you did not differentiate between who or how many were conspiring against you when complaining about the dozens of likes other peoples’ posts get.
Oh I did indeed have the quest chains mixed. The quest chain that first mentions Xe’ra is the same quest chain that sees us reviving her and getting Illidan for her. Then we get evidence that Xe’ra’s not good when we find out what she did to Alleria. THEN comes the quest chain wherein she tries to forcibly Lightforge Ilidan, revealing it was her plan the whole time.
Yeah, but we’ve gone through a bunch of wrongs already. They never should have introduced Xe’ra? Or Yrel before that? Or draenei and the naruu before that? Or the idea of the Light before that? I wouldn’t go that far.
And neither do you. You don’t think retcons are wrong. You want to retcon the stories for these characters Blizzard has already set out.
And in causing me to revaluate my argument, we both now agree that ISIS was a force that required a concerted military effort lasting years to actually take out, and they still didn’t actually manage to do it. Just lessen it.
And ISIS doesn’t have the potential for the assets the Scarlets would. There’s no equivalent of Xe’ra that can float down from the sky and give them legitimacy.
Are you honestly trying to use the “power levels” argument again?
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It makes sense when you understand the relationship between Yin and Yang. Which you claim you do.
I don’t misunderstand you. And while you didn’t know, you indeed guessed correctly.
Because Yrel and Grom became friends in the 30 years since Grom quite the Iron Horde and it ended. And her reasons for committing genocide with the Lightbound are due to the visions she’s received from Xe’ra.
Indeed, Yrel, Draenei, nauru, the Lightforged, Turalyon as the leader of the Army of the Light, and the Light itself wouldn’t exist without the retcons and poor writing they’ve been subjecting us to. And your solutions require more retcons and poor writing.
But you don’t actually care about retcons and poor writing. You’re even willing to employ them it means you can avoid a Light Crsuade expansion.
If the demon Hunters were all locked up and unable to work with the Night Elves since WCIII, why are they Night Elf units in WCIII . You even said yourself that “Night Elves have been able to recruit and work with Demon Hunters since Warcraft 3”.
Making accusations requires you to have to actually be able to back up your claims. “Expressing suspicions” out loud and expecting people to take them seriously is passive aggressive and disingenuous.
And don’t and try and hide behind something Akiyass said in another thread instead of giving your own thoughts. What traits do you accuse me of having?
Both the Mag’har and Draenei killed them. The Mag’har when they were displacing them and moving them to ghettos, and the Draenei when they rolled in with their “convert or die” campaign. Both committed genocide. And no, it wasn’t “legitimate” or “justifiable” in either case. It was bad in both cases. The main difference is that Mag’har have been part of the villain batted faction before.
*The part that’s brainwashing is where Xe’ra uses a combination of her mind reading, Lightforging and visions via the Light to manipulate the player character’s, Turalyon’s, and (unssuccesfully) Illidan’s thoughts or action against their initial desires, will, or knowledge. Also in constructing her elite Army of the Light, thus controlling the physical and social environment, an attempt is made to destroy loyalties to any unfavorable groups or individuals (like Alleria and the Locus Walker), to try and demonstrate to these characters that their attitudes and patterns of thinking are incorrect and must be changed, and to try and develop loyalty and unquestioning obedience to herself. You know, so a guy will do things like lock up the mother of his own child even though he knows she’s not a threat.
*We don’t see any Mag’har at all in Legion so we can’t say what the effect is on them.
*The other Lightforged Draenei– who’ve served Xe’ra far longer than Turalyon has, are all beneath Turalyon in terms of rank and closeness to Xe’ra to the point they aren’t even shown interacting with Xe’ra. Of course we didn’t see their responses.
As long as we can acknowledge that the Mag’har are stll undergoing genocide at the hands of the Lightbound- who are are not preserving their language, clothing, combat styles, religion, etc.
So does popularity matter in determining what’s good/bad or not? Because you keep trying to argue something’s good/bad based on how popular it is/isn’t and who it’s popular/unpopular with.
And yeah, you’re clearly okay with some edgy things. You’re all cool with the genocide being justified/legitimate. You only really seem to bring it up when you want to discredit opposition to Xe’ra, Yrel, Turalyon, or the Light. Or the idea of a Light Crusade.
Yes, the developers intentionally wrote the bad character as doing bad things to characters we’re familiar with in order to illustrate they are bad. I know you’d prefer these victims of bodily autonomy violations and/or genocide to be framed as “deserving it”, but here we are. Thank goodness.
And I can’t believe you can talk about short term high provided by vindictive anger that assures us of our own correctness at the expense of our perceived enemies and disparage the idea of lessons that preach against that mindset by presenting us with grayer situations.
And yeah, WoW will invent more Villainous naruu. Like they invented the jailer. Like they invented Yrel. Like they evented the Lightbound and the Lightborn. Like they invented draenei and the naruu to begin with. Like they invented Turalyon as the leader of the Lightborn. Like they invented the Light itself.
And when she shows up again, he’ll personally see her alive. he also never disagreed with Xe’ra. Not even when he went along with her and explicitly said he trusted her even when she decided to have Alleria imprisoned.
*Only now having a Light Crusade being properly set up looks like the developers didn’t do as good enough job fleshing the Light before this point.
*We both acknowledge that Anduin and Velen- who have never followed Xe’ra- aren’t going to follow her, and they’re both big name Light reps and racial leaders.
*We don’t need a Light Crusade expansion to explore Lordaeron’s politics, but there’s a lot of overlap between that and the MHP crowd and we can do both at the same time.
*Yes, repeating a message does make it sink in. That is literally the whole idea behind repition.
I doubt it’ll be particularly profound or thoughtful because that’s never been WoW, but it definitely won’t be proselytizing for it or demonization against religion. WoW’s been having both good and bad characters of all kinds of religious beliefs without proselytizing for or demonization against religion as a whole for a while. Religion in WoW doesn’t begin and end with the Light. There’s several other faiths that are representative of religion. It’s really hard to argue how WoW can never be anti-religion (to say nothing of anti-Christian) or anti-authority so long as folks like literal Priest King Anduin, Priestess Princess Calia, Prophet Velen and all the other high profile good Light based characters remain in the game as reps of the faith.
Your rant about what you consider the ills of modern society being the result of people resisting authority, thinking for themselves, expressing empathy for others and otherwise not abiding by your moral standards -which consider genocide and robbing people of their bodily autonomy to be morally neutral or even good things- explains a lot about how you came to your conclusions. Because they aren’t rooted in the lore or precedent in the story or even the Dev’s stated goals with characters. Plus how you seem to equate the handling of the Light to all religion in general and your religion in particular. It explains why you want desperately to discredit any idea that a Light Crusade expansion is bad to the point you keep making all these threads arguing against it.
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Tammy makes some really good points.
Cursewords hasn’t posted in a while. I hope he’s not on a “forum vacation” I miss him. How can I be his alt if he never posts?
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Tammy is another awesome person to talk to about the lore, she actually knows her stuff 
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I wouldn’t know. If every post that person makes is going to be novel length, then there is not much chance people (especially me) are going to read it.
Just saying.
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To each their own hun, takes a lot patience to read through a wall of text 
Maybe you should hide the quotes under the spoiler? What for.
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Oh that’s nice of you to say.
Thadeus was feeling ignored by Tammy, and he accused her of being me - so I kinda let them have at it. At least the OP learned how foolish his constant suspicions are. Maybe he learned that varied and multiple posters will find objection to his posts on the Facts, as well as his opinion.
He seems intent on lumping people who point out his falsehoods as a “hate brigade”. Or imagining they are all sock puppets of mine. So, I figured I would let him have a word with others. Maybe he can learn that just because people point out his falsehoods, it doesn’t mean they hate him.
Tammy is doing a good job of correcting Thadeus, on the facts, as well as pointing out his hypocrisy. And she does it in a nicer way than I.
The OP is objecting to retcons, but he has proven that he enjoys retcons when they boost the Light. He only objects to retcons when they might disagree with his IRL world view. In fact, he objects to the current lore, and wants to retcon it, because the light might not be inherently good, and could be used for evil.
The OP keeps ranting about Yrel having anger towards the Iron Horde for being a slave, or killing her sister. But that is only his false head canon that has no basis in the current lore. Yrel and the Iron Horde made amends, worked together, and the hostilities came afterward. He wants that retconned to support his head canon.
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OP also ignores the visual and music queues like in the Illidan’s choice cinematic.
Which clearly shot Xe’ra in the same way horror movies shoot the killer with the Ironside siren playing in the background.
Somehow Thadeus saw that, shurgged, and went “She has legitimate greivances because he’s an edgelord”
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He needs to go away with his nonsense. Anything that paints the light being morally ambiguous and not always noble and he gets upset over it. Like nothing is ever black or white, not even the Good Guys
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not even God.
I got in trouble in Catholic School for asking the question “If God is perfect, how could he possibly create imperfect humans in his own image?” An innocent question. How could something perfect, make something imperfect?
But it becomes a perfection paradox of “God doesn’t make mistakes”
We are either perfect as we are, or God is just as flawed as we are.
Thankfully I had really open to discussion teachers, especially Mr. D my senior year religion teacher who redirected me to phiosophy and metaphysics, and I’ve never looked back. I considered majoring in religion in Uni.
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What is the name of the state when a person looks good, says that everything is fine, and then a sudden end of the world comes?
Yrel, despite defeating the Iron Horde, still felt like a slave to the orcs, something like that. Or trauma doesn’t work that way?
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Actually, Ion said that Azeroth was a world of moral grayness, but Blood Trolls were the exception, which is not good. I guess Queen Azshara also counts, because they went out of their way to make her like Palpatine and try to give her no redeeming or heroic qualities.
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I…know…that was the entire point of my post. Not sure if your trying to correct me or your agreeing
No, you said nothing was black and white, but I gave you exceptions. I agree that they shouldn’t be, but Blizzard messed up.
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I don’t care what blizzard says to be truthful, because they say a lot of things. Which ends up being them not knowing their own lore
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I think, since Trolls were treated badly enough, Ion saying that is very bad.
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Spot on. And speaking of characters with no redeeming or heroic qualities, there’s also Gul’dan, Xavius, Archimonde (as of his pre-demonhood lore in Legion) and Cho’gall.
That is not stated in the lore. At all. That is just head canon.
When Grom and Yrel face each other, she doesn’t say :
“All those feeling I had repressed, now exploded, and I want justice for the past!”
She calls Grom a friend, and laments having to face him.
Trauma can express itself in many forms. However, that is not what Yrel is expressing. That is not in the lore.
You can make a conjecture that she is lying about forgiveness… But in her own words and in her pamphlets that her devoted carry, she calls the Maghar noble allies. And she calls Grom a friend.
If you want to say Yrel has harbored ill will, and lied to the Maghar to lull them into a trap 40 years later… that’s fine. I don’t mind discussing theories. It just isn’t in the current lore.
And that is where you and Thadeus differ. You ask a question, and youpropose a theory involving the idea of Yrel being upset. That seems fair. But Thadeus tries to act like Yrel having animus towards the Maghar is canon, when it is not.
And if she had been planning all along for revenge, and lying to the Maghar, I think that makes her seem far more sinister. At least if Yrel finds out a rogue Naaru tricked her, her villain batting could be temporary, until she finds out the truth.
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I’m not suprised Ion and co crapped on the trolls again. It’s a favorite past time of theirs, it’s why I tend to be…suspicious of what they say, because there’s a 99% the content in game is going to contradict their claims, you?
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