It’s just….if someone doesn’t want their bad takes or headcannon torn apart by others, they shouldn’t post them to the story forum. The Fan Fiction/RP forum exists for that sort of thing you know?
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Of course to add to this statement I suspect that not only are the Cosmic Forces are each originating from individual Cosmic Entities but they may all have the same Motive in the end.
- N’Zoth whispers: Six seats at the high table. Six mouths that hunger. One will consume all others.
If it turns out that all 7 Cosmic Forces(Darkness, Death, Life, Void, Light, Disorder and Order) are Omnicidal Maniacs seeking to consume all(and might possibly be allied to each other) then the 8th unknown Force that the Broker Al’farim implied they were afraid of is the Good Guy.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Expedition_Report_A37J_-_Part_4
If truth, what would this say of mortal souls and their potential?
And if the six (or seven, or… excuse my imprecision) each vie with one another to claim it, could they be driven by the unconscious knowledge that there exists some other force outside our understanding that seeks it as well?
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I thought it also said they wanted to unmake the universe. Then again, wouldn’t devouring all matter and energy do that?
The idea of each cosmic force having one being in charge raises an interesting question. Could those beings be the First Ones?
Surprisingly, the Light isn’t touched on much in the Chronicles. I wondered if Elune was a “Light Lord” in Legion given her tear unlocked Xe’ra’s core. Then in Shadowlands I thought she might be a First One (and that Eonar was the Winter Queen’s sister). I was so disappointed by that Elune and Winter Queen cinematic.
The Light has been subject to a few retcons over time.
Well, Micah only came to this thread and started commenting after our argument on the frat boy thread and continued the discussion here. Can you understand why I’m suspicious, in light of that?
I’m going to add that the developers have stated that the First Ones created other cosmic realms as well. Wowpedia has interpreted this to mean that they created every single one of the cosmic forces.
They seek to devour all matter and energy in the Physical Universe(I.E. the Great Dark Beyond).
The Chronicle also states that the Void Lords sought to twist reality into a Realm of Eternal Torment(which pretty much just means the Black Empire on every Planet in existence).
The Void Lords would consume the Great Dark Beyond just so that they could convert the other Cosmic Realms into Void Realms creating what is practically a Mogu Empire with Tentacles!
The Void Lords want to run the prisons of the 7 Cosmic Entities themselves(if not kill the 7 themselves) and are willing to eat the Great Dark Beyond to do so.
That does sound like the Void. I think your “Mogu Empire with Tentacles” example might be onto something. By the way, the Old Gods tended to wage war on each other for fun - they did this with the Elemental Lords, and if I recall there was some falling out with N’Zoth and the others (or at least Y’Shaarj).
N’Zoth fought Y’Shaarj, C’Thun and Yogg-Saron.
The reason for the battles against C’Thun and Yogg-Saron weren’t stated but his fight against Y’Shaarj was to get at the Wound in the earth(I.E. an Azerite wound) where the Temple of Elune that became the Tomb of Sargeras was built over.
The Gamescom interviews state that the wound in the earth was ultimately sealed by the Kal’dorei and as shown by the Titan Facility existing under the Tomb of Sargeras the Titans likely were interested in the Azerite themselves though only because ripping out Y’Shaarj unleashed an Azerite Storm that had to be converted into Arcane to prevent it from destroying Azeroth.
The Titans clearly were looking to uproot more Old Gods from Azeroth and wanted to investigate the Azerite in order to prevent more Azerite Storms in the future.
Basically the story of N’Zoth’s conflict against Y’Shaarj(and probably the other Old Gods) is:
Old Gods notice an Azerite Wound on Azeroth, fight over it, Y’Shaarj wins, the Titans tear out Y’Shaarj causing a second Azerite Wound causing an Azerite Storm, Old Gods are sealed away, Titans turn the Azerite Wound into the Arcane Well of Eternity, build a Titan Facility over the older Azerite Wound in order to Study it and leave allowing the Kal’dorei to eventually move in and seal the Azerite Wound using the Pillars of Creation.
That explains that. I wonder if N’Zoth holds/held (I’m not sure if we killed him off once and for all in BfA) a grudge over that. If we get a Void or Light vs Void expansion, I think that would be interesting to explore.
How many Old Gods are still around in some form? iirc in Legion Yogg-Saron is making a comeback in some form (like Y’Shaarj and the Sha).
It’s hard to say for absolute certain. Chronicle III indicates that the Old Gods we’ve killed are indeed dead-dead (as each one’s death at player hands had the surviving Old Gods altering their timetables and schemes out of concern for their own survival), but that doesn’t necessarily mean leftover fragments of their bodies and surviving minions couldn’t still retain some limited measure of their influence like, as you said, the sha with Y’shaarj.
Though the destruction of his heart seemed to end the sha, so depending upon how completely we canonically destroyed the others’ bodies, they may or may not each still exist to comparable degrees. If equivalent organs of any one of them remain functional, then perhaps it could still mindlessly produce such projections of their corruption across surrounding regions even if the Old God itself is slain. Yogg-saron’s influence seemed to be reasserting a limited presence in Ulduar during Legion, but that could have easily been N’zoth’s doing, since he was still alive at the time and seemed to have inherited control over everything “Old God” on Azeroth as the last one left, as during both Cataclysm and BfA he was able to awaken and rally previously dormant Old God creatures all over Azeroth that would have originally belonged to his brethren.
As things stand, it would seem that all four of Azeroth’s Old Gods have each had their centralized identities and the bulk of their power on the planet killed off, though it remains unclear if that means they’re truly eradicated from existence or if - as Void entities - being killed simply sent them back to the Void the way demons are sent back to the Twisting Nether.
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I don’t oppose black and white morality in stories. I don’t think it’s superior writing, but I don’t oppose it. And I definitely don’t make multiple threads where I make bad arguments about how much I hate such stories and how the only people who enjoy them are bad/wrong. And I don’t argue that others disagree because they personally dislike me, while taking passive aggressive jabs.
The fact remains that this “Yrel’s Holy Terror” plot relies on fewer retcons and bad writing than the story that brought Yrel, the drfaenei, and the nauru into existence in the first place. In this instance, retcons and better writing actually justify her existence as a character, illuminate on her aforementioned “dark secret”, and work to further explore the established concept of the Light as not always being good.
I never changed track. I always gave Turalyon a possible out. Because that’s what Blizzard does. And why I argue that it makes more sense to have both Turalyon and Yrel be pawns of Xe’ra.
You’re the one who insists that Turalyuon and Yrel be villain and/or commit terrible acts and join Xe’ra in being a villain all on their own accord.
Humans, dwarves, and gnomes meet the exact same standards that you set forth for the Nerubians in defining them as a “void entity”. Logic you also applied to Nerubians spawned in a Titan facility. I’m going by your logic.
I don’t even respond to half your threads on this topic. You accused me of ignoring you before. I saw the potential for Xe’ra being an antagonist before you even appeared on the forums and started making multiple threads arguing against it. You’re also in other threads having similar arguments with other people and making bad arguments there too.
Because faith is synonymous conviction. I used the term because it was correct. Why did you spend so much time arguing against it?
I am not. There is no substantive difference between the Onslaught and any of the other Scarlet groups. You’re desperate to try and argue all these Scarlets are so substantively different even when they have pretty much the same overarching goals and beliefs and even wear the exact same uniforms.
You were not only unable to count the correct number- after me citing the post you requested. You tried to dismiss it by claiming you suspect they personally dislike you.
Stop blaming other people for your own bad arguments.
I had to explain to you what the political ramifications are because you demanded evidence in protest of my claim. As if you didn’t know it was true. Why would you demand citation for facts you already know to be true?
The Scarlets’s larger ideology isn’t wiped out, though. And the Crusade is unlikely to be wiped out, as it has a tendency to keep coming back expansion after expansion alongside other Scarlets.
Also, it does make sense and is not at all unheard of for a co-ed organization to use “brotherhood” int he title. It’s an example of how many male nouns can be used in the gender neutral sense; like how “mankind” is often used to describe humanity in general and not just men. Or the very common occurrence wherein a non-male military officer is addressed as “Sir”.
And Xe’ra made that assumption and dismissed other possibilities because of the tendency of the Light to seek one path and shuns all others as lies. She just picked the wrong path.
It is “nuanced” to try and give the naaru “their own distinct personalities and goals” when the villain-batting is applied in a nuanced way that maintains that naruu have their own distinct personalities and goals. Xe’ra is not the only nauru in existence. There are plenty of non-villainous narruu that aren’t villain-batted. And what makes Xe’ra rather interesting is that she’s not a wolf in sheep’s clothing: she’s actually an example of the fact that not all sheep are benign- which is very much not a cliche.
Having all sheep be universally benign and all wolves be universally malicious (or at most occasionally not terrible) would be the cliche.
I wasn’t aware that Twilight was about the Light not being all good, since you’re referencing them in regards to the Light isn’t all perfect isn’t unpopular. If anything, quite the opposite, as Twilight is famous for taking the edge off Vampires and presenting us with an otherwise pretty tame romance free of much complexity.
Also, if there’s no relationship between what’s good/bad and what’s popular/unpopular, why did you starte this argument by trying to argue against a Light Crusade expansion on the grounds that it’ll be unpopular?
Of course you’re allowed to just say, “I don’t personally like it.” But you don’t do that. You make repeated threads trying to argue against the idea based on lore. Based on precedent. Based on what constitutes “good” writing. Based on what’s popular and unpopular. Based on how you think the alternative is exclusively the domain of people who have the mindset of edgy teenagers. Based on how you think everyone who disagrees with you is conspiring against you. And the arguments you make on those grounds are indeed bad arguments.
The quest chain that first mentions Xe’ra is the same quest chain that sees us reviving her, getting Illidan for her, and her trying to forcibly Lightforge him. As I said, Xe’ra was introduced as being untrustworthy and willing to forcibly Lightforge people against their will in her very first questline.
And that bad thing she did resulted in her death because she never stopped/tried anything else. Even when asked to stop.
But what I’m telling you is what I think Blizzard’s output will be.
Of course Xe’ra with Turalyon in tow won’t succeed in wiping out the Forsaken.
I also acknowledge Blizzard has a history of contradicting themselves and ignoring continuity errors and ignore character progression. But they do it anyway. It’s how we got the Light in the first place. If you’re that concerned about it, understand that not doing a Light Crsuade expansion would indeed contradict and ignore continuity and character progression that they’ve already laid down as well.
If you already knew, you wouldn’t have asked all those questions that could have been easily looked up on Wikipedia and revealed that ISIS is very much an extant threat to hundreds of thousands/millions of people that multiple world governments are still working to actively suppress.
And they wouldn’t have nearly the assets the Scarlets would.
And as already pointed out, the Scarlets are perfectly willing to work with non-humans for their long term goals. And Xe’ra is perfectly capable of not telling people what her own goals, even as she reads peoples minds and gives them visions in order to direct them in pursuit of her own.
The things you claim Blizzard to have forgotten are only things you have incomplete knowledge or a warped understanding of. You incorrectly thought the Titan pantheon personally made and used the reoriginator engine, for example.
And despite having had previous instances of villainous priests and paladins, Blizzard hasn’t painted all priests and paladins as universally bad, you know.
And the retcon ship will continue to sail. The drink has been spilled and can’t be put back into the bottle. Your problem isn’t retcons and bad writing. You just have a thing about the Light in general and Xe’ra, Yrel and Turalyon in particular.
And yet the Horde and Alliance keep teaming up. Also, the Night Elves recruited Demon Hunters in WCIII after having locked them up in the first place. Then they were banished from the Night Elves in WCIII. Then we fought them in Outland in BC. Then they were imprisoned again before we worked alongside them again in Legion.
And, my assessment is quite accurate. Every time you contradict yourself or struggle to defend an argument rather than admit when you’re wrong. And you’ll prove me right again when we see you post another thread on this very same topic some time in the near future.
Your assessments of me have been far less accurate. I’m not obsessed with getting the last word in. I don’t make multiple threads on the same topic. You even wrongfully suspected me of intentionally not responding to you at the beginning of the thread! You’re the one who even brought up the idea about people needing to get the last word in by admitting that you have the problem with it and you wrongfully suspected I do. Just how you wrongfully suspected me and Cursewords being the same person.
Just like you just wrongfully suspected that I think you’re an idiot. Just like now you’re taking umbrage at the idea of being called a liar, when I never called you one.
Stop blaming other people for your bad arguments.
Yeah, killing loads of Ogres following the end of the Gorrean Empire definitely involved genocide to get there. What, are we going to act like it’s strange to have have a story thread wherein Orc characters are described as engaging in genocidal acts?
My situation with Yrel does add nuance, as it turns her from being the big bad archvillain bound by their immortal nature -who commits warcrimes- and turns her into a mortal being manipulated by forces more powerful than her and possibly worthy of being rescued- who commits warcrimes.
The naruu aren’t a hivemind. They’re individuals. Xe’ra is not representative or responsible for the views and goals of every single naruu.
Again, brainwashing and manipulation doesn’t mean people are being puppeted around on strings or become drones. We do see Xe’ra peering into Turalyon’s mind. And our mind. We see her giving Turalyon and us visions. And we see her using that to have us to try and help her accomplish her goals, as she hides what they are from us. We see her trying to forcibly Lightforge Illidan, which he denies in he doesn’t want to lose who he is as a person.
It’s not stupid to not mention the iron Horde because they’ve been gone for 30 years. And their former leader quit. People don’t continuously talk about organizations that lasted a couple years and were disbanded 30 years ago. And the people who weren’t even alive when those organizations died talk about them even less.
MU Draka showed her distaste for MU Grom was exiled from the old Horde while it was up to all the terrible stuff it was doing. She died resisting them. And AU Draka fought Grom in AU Draenor until he himself left and started fighting against the Iron Horde and the Legion.
I’ve not only watched, but understood enough of WoD, BfA and beyond to actually know their lore so I don’t end up making smug and inaccurate claims that stuff’s being accidentally left out- as you just did.
Before I cite this example, I want you to confirm that you don’t know about it first. Because you have a tendency to ask for evidence of things to prove they exist, only to later claim you knew about it already rather than admit you were wrong.
At the point in the story when Illidan destroys Xe’ra, he is quite literally being selected by her as her chosen one who will lead her forces to victory. He was the leader of the elite group that was literally named after him. He was a member of the minority leading a majority being selected to be an even smaller minority leading an even bigger majority.
I don’t think Blizzard bases too much on what they think will be applauded by the fanbase these days. Unless you’re arguing current WoW is super popular. But wait, you’re also arguing that actual quality is divorced from what’s popular/unpopular.
Pick an argument.
If anyone’s projecting their hatred onto others, it’s you projecting all this hatred onto Illidan and anything you deem “edgy” onto the larger WoW audience.
You’re allowed to just say, “I don’t personally like it.” But you don’t do that. You make repeated threads trying to argue against the idea based on lore. Based on precedent. Based on what constitutes “good” writing. Based on what’s popular and unpopular. And the arguments you make on those grounds are indeed bad arguments.
I already explained how such a story would hardly be one-sided, as characters like Velen and Anduin- big Light reps and examples of the Man- would oppose Xe’ra. We agree that they’re not going to let characters like Alonsus and Calia aren’t going to die, and they’ll likely oppose her. Because Blizzard has stated that not all nauru are identical and they have different goals, we have lots of good nauru to oppose her.
He thought she was dead before. And then she came back. And how o you suppose he lost trust and respect for her if, by your own arguments, Xe’ra didn’t actually ever do anything wrong and not even we the audience -with a birds eye view of the story- are ever given a good reason not to distrust her?
What does a Light Crusade expansion holds the potential for…
*A chance to give the Light some complexity and shades compared to the other Cosmic forces. Similar, a chance to give the other cosmic forces some more shades and a more complex relationship with the light. Because some people don’t obsess so much at the idea of things bnot being not black and white that they repeatedly devote multiple threads to their desperate attempts to disparage alternatives. Some people actually want to try and treat the Cosmic powers in WoW with consistency.
- It’d also gives us an exploration into how the Light manifests across multiple cultures and in different individuals in ways that’ve never been explored in depth. Just as the Light we have now is in many ways different from how it was first introduced in WCIII.
*Seeing as not all the races of the Alliance are so fervrent in their following of the Light or as obsessed about Lordaeron humans are, this can be a potential point of friction between the various Alliance states.
*It actually addresses the politics of the Lordaeron ownership/succession conflict and brings it center stage, with the possibility of a definite conclusion. That wraps up a lot of characters’ still unresolved threads.
*It can help us learn more about characters like Turalyon and Yrel, who were hastily re-inserted into the story via lazy retcons and could use some proper characterization and relationships. Same for the Stormwind House of Nobles, which have been in the story for a while, but never gotten to be central to the plot.
*It prevents the exacerbation of retcons because they can continue with what they’ve already done with Xe’ra and Yrel or go against their already stated intent to explore the concept of the Light not being universally good. And they don’t have to go back and change their motivations.
*And yeah, it’d be a chance to deliver another “dogmatism is bad message”. based on recent events, I don’t think it’s a lesson that’s quite sunk in yet.
And it can do all of the above at the same time.
Your personal aversion to gray morality doesn’t make it bad or “good vs evil” stories better. Most “good vs evil” works these days tend to be the result of people who want to make black and white characters and subject matter and lack the maturity/experience/focus/fairness//empathy/knowledge necessary to actually explore the complexities of reality or the human experience. That, or thy’re writing a propaganda-wrapped power fantasy. Indeed, more often than not, propaganda-wrapped power fantasy tends towards black and white depictions of morality.
If one considers not being blindly loyal to authority, resistance to authority, moral complexity and the ambiguities of the universe as ideas purely in the realm of edgy teenage angst, then they’re probably looking at things from the point of view of a stereotypical younger child: one who still unquestioningly believes whatever they’re told by authority figures, and thinks the human experience or universe can be easily digested in the form of simplistic dichotomies or simple truths. They often find teenagers and adults weird and sometimes even gross. While it’s okay to let children enjoy being children and live in that blissful ignorance, eventually, we adults have to start stoking their curiosity, expand their experiences and help them grow beyond that. Grow as people.
Because World of Warcraft is rated T for teen. It’s meant for audiences of teenagers and older. It’s not for little children.
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JMS envisioned the entire main arc of B5 as a set timeframe story covering certain events. Funnily enough he talked about it running through his head in a shower and then spending years getting it written and done.
If you’re looking for the actual noble character to have them show us in WoW it’s Lorien. Not The Light.
(Hmm, interesting… The First One…)
TBH B5 is a somewhat interesting thought due to this thread: What would Mr. Sebastian have thought of Xera, I doubt that would have ended well.
“No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame–for one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see. I have been in service to the Vorlons for centuries, looking for you: Diogenes and his lamp looking for an honest man willing to die for all the wrong reasons.”
– Sebastian
Technically we do not know who is prophesying, there is a prophecy, but by whom is missing. Blizzard follows the greek style on prophecy, so it doesn’t help you avoid it normally.
Thus, yes, what actually happened is effectively what was to be. Whether the prophet told Xera what Xera’s end would be is a different question.
I presume their direction is that all the forces in balance are what makes the universe. But naturally, greed/avarice drive each force to desire more than balance.
Would need another force as an alloying entity, which brings the others together:
- Because it is good. Or
- Because it is bad and must be contained.
“Perspective” should not be forgotten. In a balanced system springing from primal energies, any one energy gaining dominance would be equal to being “consumed” for those beings used to the balanced state.
Realize the issue here: Why did Titans need to study an Azerite wound, when they thought Azeroth was one of them? Isn’t that only needed if Azeroth wasn’t like them…?
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The name Azeroth is similar to the word Zereth Mortis which is the name of the First Ones’ Realm AKA the Sepulcher.
Sylvanas said that the World is a prison so the Entity that Aggramar sensed deep within the Planet might not be a Titan but Mortis/Death itself. The Brokers call out the Titans need to categorize everything according to what they know so it is no surprise they can’t tell a prison Planet containing a very powerful Entity from a Titan.
Of course them improperly categorizing the Entity at Azeroth’s Core means that they might very well have improperly categorized the 4 writhing horrors atop the Planet. Generally I suspect that only N’Zoth and C’Thun are the same species as the Void Entities on that Planet Sargeras sliced in halve!
Yogg-Saron might be a manifestation of Death clawing out of it’s Prison at the center of the World while Y’Shaarj might be a full-fledged Void Lord(what with how he looks so reptilian and non-tentacle-like unlike all other Old Gods we’ve seen) invading the Planet after barely managing to manifest(the Chronicle states that Void Lords struggle to manifest in the Physical Realm though doesn’t say why)!
Still thinking about it.
Light be with you. 
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The light has always been a sham… it’s about time it’s fake news of salvation and being “good” was brought to reality.
All cosmic forces have their own goals
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The light being all good is such a boring idea. Be nice to learn it has its own agenda and the whole being pure is nothing more than a cover
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No, the Light is always truthful and does not hide behind. He does not consider it necessary to inform you about your impurities (not out of malice, because he considers you agreeable), ungrateful, sees himself in everything … Absolutely truthful.
How could we possibly call any of them good or bad? They aren’t sentient. They just exist and do what’s in their nature. It would be like calling a lion evil for eating animals to survive.
It’s the creatures that represent those forces, like say the Naaru. It would far more interesting if their ultimate goal was less than benevolent
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Off topic but came back from getting my second shot of the good old COVID 19 vaccine. Did that certain thread about another certain thread go the way of the dodo?
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it probably has always been less Benevolent, they are just weak and are using mortals to fight the Fel and Death.
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