A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

[Renautus-arathor]

I apparently pay $150 in subscription fees just to brigade Thadeus.

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

I don’t know where this argument is, but I’ll start over.

1. Forceful Lightforging is brainwashing.

2. The Lightbound were the aggressors.

3. Blizzard is NOT villain-batting the Light.

4. Making Yrel evil is not an attack on real-world religion.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

1. That’s a claim without evidence.
2. According to a questionable source, and the AU Draenei have legitimate grievances.
3. Not sure about that.
4. We’ll see.

[Renautus-arathor]

Thadeus doesn’t respect consent.

lightforging someone without their consent is bad. Xe’ra was evil for trying to force Illidan to change against his will. She deserved the thing that happened to her. Xe’ra using the Light for evil doesn’t make the Light evil, but it does suggest that anyone can use the Light for evil purposes. Zealotry in Wow is real. Zealotry around the Light is real. The Lightbound are a real cosmic level threat, they could hypothetically be as bad as the Legion if given enough development.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I’m not the one making the same thread trying poorly to argue against the lore and stuff that the developers have clearly been working towards. That’s you.

And like I said, all WoW expansions have retcons and bad writing. The existence of the Church of the Light is a retcon. The existence of the nauru is a retcon. The existence of the draenei is a retcon. The existence of Yrel at all is a retcon. Turalyon having spent the past centuries leading the Lightforged is a retcon. And making the Light the singular force in the cosmos with no moral nuance while everything else gets to have it is bad writing.

It’s not that you dislike retcons and bad writing. You just have this weird thing about the Light in general and Xe’ra and Yrel and Turalyon in particular.

No weirder than your opposition to black and white morality in stories.

The fact remains that this “Yrel’s Holy Terror” plot relies on retcons and bad writing. Other parts of the story also being dragged down by retcons and bad writing doesn’t change that.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I argued that there’s plenty of room narratively for him to initially follow Xe’ra should she show up in a Light Crusade expansion. And even point out how Blizzard often writes outs for these characters and how it could likely go down.

You’re the one who seems to think that people who don’t hate a Light Crusade expansion must hate all these other characters. Or making accusations that people who disagree with you hating it just don’t like you or think you’re an idiot.

And when those arguments were refuted, you changed track to Turalyon being forced or tricked. I’m pointing out how Blizzard often writes for these type of characters and how it could likely go down.

I don’t say all people hate those characters or dislike, I said that of just you and a few others.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

No possibility about it. I showed it to you in writing. You just don’t like it and, like you said, just refuse to change your mind. Which is why eventually we’ll see another one of these threads where you make the same arguments all over again.

You just don’t like that humans, dwarfs and gnomes don’t count and refuse to change your mind.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I am correct. You just don’t like it and, like you said, just refuse to change your mind. Which is why eventually we’ll see another one of these threads where you make the same arguments all over again.

Wrong. We’ll see each other again because you know my arguments have weight; you wouldn’t oppose them so strenuously if you truly believed they have no merit with anyone.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You’re also wrong about the Light not feeding on conviction. You tried to argue that the Light isn’t related to conviction, and that it’s all about “willpower” and “faith”, as if those aren’t common synonyms of conviction or that a dictionary definition of faith doesn’t include something that is believed especially with strong conviction. And you didn’t know that antipathy is not the opposite of conviction.

It’s clear you just didn’t know what the word “conviction” meant and don’t want to admit it.

Then why didn’t you just say willpower or faith instead of conviction? While I’m willing to concede faith is a synonym, willpower isn’t.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

The Onslaught does pretty much support all the same stuff as the original Crusade and the other Scarlet groups, but just accepts Undead as a tool to fight other Undead. They had the time to change tabards at the least while they were sailing all their troops and equipment and setting up shop in Northrend to fight.

Admit it, you’re grasping at straws here.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Here’s a direct quote from you.

You most liked post on this thread has 12 likes, and some of those 12 are from people who dislike me so I question those people’s motives for upvoting your comment…

You never specify which people dislike you and say you hold their motives in question. You never distinguish which people dislike you and never use either “all” or “most” to differentiate any. You’re trying to blame people not agreeing on people somehow having something personal against you. The truth is that you’e just wrong.

Stop blaming other people for your bad arguments.

I was only wrong about the ‘your most liked post’ part. While some genuinely like it, the fact remains that you’re getting vote-brigaded in the positive sense - not based on the quality of our arguments, but the popularity.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You needed a citation to learn that his act had political ramifications. I’d hope you knew about Martin Luther and his theses, as that’s like one the most basic and widely known elements of it the reformation. That is like Middle school and Junior high history material.

Just admit you didn’t know about the political aspects.

I knew about the political ramifications, but we’re not seeing parallels in WoW. Given Blizz’ track record, if they did add them I don’t think they would do them justice. Again, thoughtful critique of religion is rare in fiction, it’s usually one extreme or the other.

Trying to pretend I didn’t know anything after the ignorance you displayed when you first brought it up doesn’t help your case.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Both the Onslaught and Crusade used Shadow priests though.

The founder said the Crusade is no more because they made an incorrect claim. They aren’t the first/only person in game (or outside of it) to declare the end of the Scarlet Crusade and be wrong about it.

Brotherhood means the same thing in my world as it does in the real world. In this instance: an association, society, or community of people linked by a common interest, religion, or trade. WoW uses it the same way, as the Thorium Brotherhood and Defias Brotherhood also do not exclude women in their ranks, and the Defias Brotherhood is even led by a woman.

You keep contradicting yourself, not due to any tricks or traps on my part, but because you have an inconsistent and incomplete understanding of the lore. It’s not my fault that you suddenly making sense also means you happen to agree with what I say.

Abbendis declaring the Scarlet Crusade over wasn’t her saying they’ve been wiped out. That was her renouncing them. Abbendis said that statement in WotLk, and the Scarlet Crusade were wiped out in Legion.

It doesn’t make sense for a co-ed organization to call themselves a brotherhood (I’d say the same with a gender swapped scenario involving a sisterhood). And that’s not contradiction.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t assume the worst about the nauru. I just see what Xe’ra is up to because of what she’s consistently done across realities and because the developers have flat out stated her greater goals are not good for the people of Azeroth. She doesn’t even ask Illidan if he wants to be Lightforged before she starts doing it to him, so how it can’t be a change in plans when she never tried anything else.

A lesson about extremism in WoW would be a lot less cliche than another instance where a bunch of the Light characters are all good guys that we help fight against something dark and/or spooky.

Speaking of hating characters, you’re the one who can’t even mention Illidan without name calling him. I mean I’m not a fan of Illidan either, but I’m not that petty over some fictional character.

Xe’ra made an assumption about Illidan, you said yourself she couldn’t picture him refusing.

It’s not “nuanced” to try and give the naaru “their own distinct personalities and goals” when doing so involves villain-batting. We’ve already had lessons about extremism in WoW, and “light characters helping fight something dark and/or spooky” turning out to be wolves in sheep’s clothing is at least equally cliché.

I’ve mention Illidan without name-calling him before, I mix it in sometimes. People express their dislike in different ways.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Because the way it’s been done lately isn’t actually given the full attention that being a central story would allow. And the idea that the Light isn’t all perfect isn’t unpopular. It’s a very popular idea. It’s one of the more popular ideas for an upcoming expansion. You just don’t like it.

Stephanie Meyer’s Twlight books were also popular, and look at that dumpster fire. Do you think I’m the only one who dislikes or opposes a Yrel’s Holy Terror expansion? I dislike it for good reason (or at least reasons as equally valid as your reasons for liking it).

I wonder if the idea’s popularity has anything to do with BfA and Shadowlands lowering the bar so much anything looks awesome by comparison.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Xe’ra was introduced as being untrustworthy and willing to forcibly Lightforge people against their will in her very first questline. Yrel likely suffered from the massive content cuts that WoD experienced, but was already described as having “a dark secret” even then.

We just saw all the Paladin Orders of the Grand Alliance stand down from continuing their war against the Forsaken when Anduin told them to. But I’m glad we at least agree that while the various Scarlet groups have had their numbers depleted, and have risen from such a state multiple times, they aren’t “wiped out”.

No, Xe’ra was actually introduced with the “Light’s Heart” quest chain where we get her core and then take to Velen on the Exodar. We didn’t even know Light’s Heart was part of a Naaru until Velen told us. Us seemingly unable to awake her core due to O’ros’ death was depicted as tragic and a bitter defeat (granted, most fans were probably distracted by the “Velen’s long-lost son” story).

We didn’t even meet Xe’ra until we got Elune’s tear and touched it to her core. You might have distrusted her from the get-go, but that doesn’t mean everyone else did. And again, that 3 day coma was an unintended side-effect.

MU Xe’ra also doesn’t try to Lightforge anyone by force except for the one time. And that aforementioned attempt was the first, last and only time it happened… with the end result of Xe’ra’s death.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You would not be more at ease if I were writing the story. You’ve been stubbornly trying to argue against every hypothetical story point I’ve proposed.

And I’m basing how I think things would play out on Blizzard’s writing history. And on the lore Blizzard’s presented. The same things you yourself point out, while insisting Blizzard will suddenly stop doing them in a Light Crusade expansion.

If he wants to retake Lordaeron, he’s going to be wiping lots of Forsaken out as a matter of course. And if he’d be okay with that even without the Light enhancing his belief and convictions, then you’re just arguing to make him even more villainous. So you only care about Turalyon’s characterization so far as he’s associated with the Light?

I didn’t say I’d approve, I said I’d be more at ease because your ideas are less bad than Blizzard’s output.

With Alonsus and Calia involved at this point, I’m not sure Turalyon will be wiping out the Forsaken.

I’m also basing my ideas on Blizzard’s writing history and the lore they presented. I’m just willing to acknowledge how they contradict themselves and ignore continuity errors and ignore character progression.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You asked for the information because you obviously didn’t know how much of a threat ISIS was, how much a threat it still is, and incorrectly surmised that they’d be effectivelydefunct. They are not. They still present a threat to hundreds of thousands/millions of innocent people and governments across the world are still working to prevent them from gaining ground again.

The Scarlets alone, have repeatedly shown themselves to be a regional threat capable of killing enough people and taking enough territory that they require multinational military operations to take down, not unlike ISIS.

But unlike ISIS, The Scarlets’ cause has more sympathy among the general populous Stormwind, and if they have Xe’ra come down to back them up, and gain some support with Stormwind forces, and the forces of Yrel’s Lightbound army, they could be an even bigger threat.

That’s even before getting into the idea that Xe’ra’s ultimate plan is to continue beyond that with her Lightbound army, which in game dialogue and developers have already suggested is her goal.

I knew more than you realize. While the plight of people in those parts of Nigeria and Mozambique is dire and still a horrible situation, ISIS conquering those two countries wouldn’t be enough to conquer the continent of Africa, let alone the rest of the world.

Side note: speaking of global threats, I’m much more concerned about China, as their government seems primed to start WW3 (with some disturbing WW2 parallels).

Reclaiming Lorderaen has sympathy without needing the Scarlet Onslaught or Scarlet Brotherhood - the “no non-humans part” is one of the deal-breakers. I don’t see AU Xe’ra supporting them given their lack of resources, use of Shadow Priests and murderous xenophobia.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Things don’t have to be equally powerful to exist in a state of balance or maintain a state of balance. You said you understand the concept of Yin and Yang and how it relates to the Light. You should know this.

How can two forces actively opposing each other keep a balance if one is more powerful?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

The last time an MMO did a big expansion featuring forces of the Light got to be bad guys, people loved it. It got critical acclaim and the playerbase increased by leaps and bounds. What’s more cliche is a more simplistic black and white moral framing tied to cosmic forces.

What MMO are you talking about? And all this “morally grey” stuff is the new cliché now. What we’re seeing is what usually happens when people write “edgy” works for the past few decades. A person or group with mediocre creative abilities sees fiction that makes good use of melodrama, gritty settings, dark humour and such (made by people who knew what they were doing) and figured “I can do that!”, leading to said person haphazardly applying those elements incorrectly – such as retconning the naaru from crystal angels to fantasy vorlons with one character from one expansion. The results of such efforts are either tiresome, unintentionally funny or just painful.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Asking me to repeat these easily discoverable facts isn’t telling me anything new. And You’re not citing what gets forgotten by the writers.

All your questions have had answers, and none of those answers are “The Pantheon as a collective are all good/bad”. The Arcane and Titan Pantheon as a whole don’t get demonized for something individuals related to them individually do. And we often partner with them.

And if Blizzard can do it with the Titans and the Arcane, they can do it with the naruu and priests and paladins Light in a Light Crusade expansion.

I’ve cited what the writers forgot numerous times, such as Yrel’s dead sister and her past as an Iron Horde slave.

They’ve already done what you’re talking about with priests and paladins, as you know.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

And like I said, all WoW expansions have retcons and bad writing. The existence of the Church of the Light is a retcon. The existence of the nauru is a retcon. The existence of the draenei is a retcon. The existence of Yrel at all is a retcon. Turalyon having spent the past centuries leading the Lightforged is a retcon. And making the Light the singular force in the cosmos with no moral nuance while everything else gets to have it is bad writing.

Your problem isn’t retcons and bad writing. You just have a thing about the Light in general and Xe’ra, Yrel and Turalyon in particular.

I do have a problem with most of the retcons and also Blizzard’s over-reliance on retcons.
But for most retcons the ship has sailed. The drink has spilled and can’t be put back in the bottle.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t think you’re an idiot. I think you’ve simply decided on an incorrect position and refuse to change your mind, which makes you uninterested in learning anything that’s actually true that might challenge it. You often play at not knowing something, thinking that no evidence exists for people to counter your preestablished beliefs, and when the evidence does come out, you double down and ignore it. And then you try to passively aggressively imply people are ignoring you, or are sock puppeting, need to get the last word in, or have something personal against. And then you abandon the thread and make a new one where you do it again.

But if you insist I treat you like I would an idiot…

Anyone who’s ever payed a modicum of attention to WoW’s story knows of examples of enemies teaming up- namely how that the Horde/Alliance often fighting, only to inevitably team up against a common foe- to the point where Thrall and Jaina point it out in universe. And that it’s hardly the only example, as 3 of the game’s 12 classes are also made up of former antagonists turned allies (Warlocks, Death Knights, and Demon Hunters). And that’s if you don’t count Shadow Priests. Or how the members of Blood Elves and Zandalarifactions were once enemies of the Horde. And the Dark Iron Dwarves and Void Elves (most of which are former Blood Elves) were once enemies of the Alliance.

But you’re not really an idiot. And you knew all that already. You’re just loathe to admitting when you’re wrong, even when it’s obvious.

Your inaccurate assessment of me aside, Night Elves have been able to recruit and work with Demon Hunters since Warcraft 3, so they don’t count. Not sure if Warlocks count, since they’ve been part of the Horde since WoW, albeit a grudgingly tolerated one. The Dark Iron Dwarves seemed to see saw between allies and enemies, so I’m not sure about them.

I already acknowledged Death Knights. You are right about Blood Elves and Zandalari going Horde and Void Elves going Alliance.

You’re being disingenuous; just because I asked if you or Cursewords were sockpuppets for each other doesn’t mean I do it to everyone. “Need to get the last word in?” Pot, meet kettle. So you’re not calling me an idiot, you’re just calling me a liar; at least I know where I stand with you.

Plus the Horde/Alliance team ups seem to be less “allies” and more “let’s kill them – Burning Legion, Old Gods, Jailer – together today so we can try to kill each other tomorrow”.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

My claim is right. You keep insisting the reason why Yrel should be committing genocide is because the Iron Horde -which was defeated 30 years ago- wronged her, incorrectly thinking this makes her less villainous and saves her character. You try repeatedly to discredit and villainize Mag’har that weren’t even born when the Iron Horde was around to try and make it seem less bad that Yrel wants to genocide them. And that’s when you can even bring yourself to admit that genocide is even going on, as you prefer to refer to it with euphemisms like “Convert or Die” and insist that not all the things we’ve seen happening are actually happening.

The Ma’ghar don’t deserve genocide if it’s happening? Can you even hear yourself? By the way, if you’re still trying to compare her to Daenerys, the act of burning down King’s Landing in Season 8 was an act of genocide as well. You know, just like Sylvanas burning down Teldrassil in BfA.

The Ogres joined because they too are being genocided under her “convert or die” crusade. And she already said she’s not stopping at Draenor. She’s got other planets to deal with, so obviously she’s not going to let the others go, especially not the shadow worshipping arrakoa.

Having Yrel have her faith exploited does add nuance because it makes itgives more shades to the Light and the naruu as individuals. And it actually gives Yrel a potential out, as she can ultimately blame Xe’ra for manipulating her, whereas if she did the genocide by herself… well she just did it by herself. Plus, she’s already stated that she’s doing it based on the Light visions she’s received from Xe’ra, so to change it now would be a recton.

By your logic, the Mag’har were already inflicting a cultural genocide on the Ogres by forcing them into prison camps/ghettos after the decimation of the Gorian Empire.

Your scenario for Yrel still doesn’t add nuance, it takes agency from Yrel and makes the Naaru moustache-twirling villains… unless the story acknowledges that the Naaru might have a legitimate point behind their actions even if said actions are wrong (like they tried to do by retconning Sargeras into forming the Legion to fight the Old Gods).

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

It’s not headcanon. We’ve seen it in action. Again, like with everything else, you just don’t like it.

I blame MU Xe’ra for the bad stuff she does and AU Xe’rea for the bad stuff she does. They just happen to both do bad stuff because they’re both extremists. But yeah, the AU Xe’ra that currently exists and is the one that’s likely to show up on Azeroth has definitely done worse than MU Xe’ra.

Did we see Illidan mind-controlled by Xe’ra?
Did we see Turalyon or Lightforged Draenei become Xe’ra’s drones?
Did we see any Mag’har get Lightforged?

At least you don’t blame MU characters for the actions of AU characters, and vice versa.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t need to tell myself that. You told us that you won’t change your mind and will keep making the same threads over and over with the same bad arguments because you refuse to be “silenced”. And you’ve been doing this same shtick so long that I can confidently predict that you’ll do it again.

You’re wrong and using a lot of words to say very little here.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

She doesn’t bring up the Iron Horde because the Iron Horde hasn’t been a thing for 30 years. It’s not “omitting” things when you don’t bring up stuff from 30 years ago that don’t exist anymore and aren’t relevant to the topic at hand.

Greya’rah and several other Orcs explain how the Lightbound are converting and wiping them out and it’s shown in the Mag’har recruitment scenario. And we see the Lightbound and their converts then proceed to wage war on the Mag’har, resulting in us leaving with some survivors as the remainders make their last stand during the Mag’har recruitment scenario.

You seriously need to watch/play/read the scenario.

It’s stupid that Geya’rah doesn’t bring up the Iron Horde despite working under the Iron Horde’s former leader. For that matter, it’s strange that Draka doesn’t bring it up or show any distaste for fighting alongside AU Grom – she fought against AU Grom and the Iron Horde and lost her brothers-in-law - Ga’nar and Fenris (who are also Geya’rah’s uncles) - in that war. I think you should rewatch/replay/re-read the lore of WoD and BfA.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

But we can by actually seeing the Mag’har using Orcish phrases where the Lightbound do not, and even go as far as to call their own kind and their ways savage. You just ignored it, like you ignored the fact that Lightbound Orcs don’t wear any Mag’har clothing or wield any Mag’har weapons.

Because you’re trying to downplay and deny that the Mag’har are even experiencing genocide in the first place and trying to make up excuses as to why they aren’t. And also arguing that Yrel’s reasoning for genocide should be.

Because I compared it to a confirmed and fleshed out cultural genocide in the game, that of the Pandaren at the hands of the Mogu. Which Orcish phrases do the Mag’har use?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

But he still meets all your definitions of “The Man”. Xe’ra herself chose him as her chosen one. That you have such petty disdain for him doesn’t mean he doesn’t fit the definition you gave- unless you’re suddenly altering the definition to purposely exclude him.

And it still leaves Anduin and Tyrande and Velen to be “the Man” who get to be good guys in opposing Xe’ra.

Not at that point in the story, and my distaste is no more petty than your distance for black vs white morality in stories.

Blizzard stated their intention with Xe’ra was to undermine the good image the naaru had (what they meant, but not the words they used). They succeeded through playing on the audiences emotions by having her target two established characters – Alleria and Illidan. While I’m not sure about Alleria’s fanbase, Illidan has a large and vocal fanbase. Given that Illidan is an edgy character, makes sense that a significant part of his fanbase likes edgy stuff.

Plus, Illidan killing Xe’ra removed the story concept “Illidan, Champion of the Light”. That proved quite divisive, and if I were a betting man, I’d bet my bottom dollar that if “Illidan, Champion of the Light” was applauded by the fanbase, that’s what Blizzard would have done; Illidan’s not Sylvanas to get shoved in our faces no matter how we feel about him. I’d also bet quite a few people were projecting hated authority figures from their own lives on to Xe’ra (especially mothers, teachers and clergy). One of my few criticisms of the Legion expansion was the Illidan parts read like a bad pro-Illidan fanfic (yes, I know it was popular, but again, so is Twilight).

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

If your argument against the expansion were based on lore, you wouldn’t have so many bad arguments. You’d also probably have moe actual evidence to back up your claims instead of having to rely on constantly asking people to explain the lore to you to show how you’re wrong. And your arguments wouldn’t be so self contradictory.

They are based on lore, among other things. Your dislike of them doesn’t make them bad. I don’t have to rely on asking you, I ask you for research to make you re-examine the situation. And you didn’t answer my question; what will you do if the next expansion is Light Crusade, and it turns out to be the one-sided and preachy “Yrel’s Holy Terror”-type expansion?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

He doesn’t know what AU Xe’ra’s done yet. And if AU Xe’ra shows up and he doesn’t know all the terrible stuff she’s done, he’s got zero reason to be suspicious of her and all that much more reason to give her the benefit of the doubt. And that’s before she starts to manipulate him like she did Yrel.

He knows MU Xe’ra is dead and had lost trust and respect for her. He’s not going to fall into lockstep behind an AU version regardless of what he does or doesn’t know about her.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

The Scarlets were there from WoW’s Vanilla to show that the Light was capable of moral grayness and amorality. Arthas, one of the most well known Your problem is you you chafe at other Light based characters showing any similar such shades and keep insisting the Scarlets and their ideology are dead. In effect leaving everything else associated with the Light is just all good and everything else is various shades of morally gray/amoral/bad.

Which is way worse than the Light being morally gray or amoral. And it puts you at odds with lore and existing story developments when they actually do try to introduce some more nuance to the Light and its characterization beyond the Scarlets to make things more consistent with the other cosmic forces.

What does a Light Crusade expansion hold the potential for?

• Yet another “MorAlLy gReY” setting because someone can’t stand good vs evil?
• Yet another "extreme order = extreme chaos) story?
• Yet another “dogmatism is bad” message?

The Scarlet Crusade were also a retcon, but better handled and I said only the Scarlet Crusade is dead, not the Scarlet Onslaught and Scarlet Brotherhood too. I’m fine with Arthas. We see his connection to the Light diminish in the novel and it’s gone by the time of the undead campaign (him using it in the last levels of the human campaign looks more like a gameplay mechanic).

Your personal aversion to black and white morality doesn’t make “good vs evil” stories worse. Most “edgy” works these days tend to be the result of people who want to make morally grey characters and subject matter but lack the maturity/experience/focus/fairness necessary to NOT end up with anything other than a multiple-personality-disordered mess or a propaganda-wrapped power fantasy.

The stereotypical teenager, especially one with gothic/emo tendencies or problems with authority, commonly embody this - all too eager for “adult” things (eg: violence, sex, “bending the rules” etc.) in their limited perception of such, often born of denial. Anyone or anything standing between them and what they want will be seen as a terrible “evil” and dealt with as such. Individuals who pander to said demographic, are downright hacks or share that mindset will favour this approach over any sense of complexity, subtlety, nuance and some actual understanding of the human condition.

[Renautus-arathor]

Did an emo/goth kid pick on you in High School?

Do you envy the “bad boys?”

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Your petty personal jabs at me aside (you wouldn’t believe whatever I said, and there’s a few jabs I could make about you and - for one - Sunday school, but I’m not going to)… You do realize you’re talking about the same Lightbound who haven’t even conquered one planet, aren’t trying to destroy the universe and whose leader can apparently get one-shotted by a fel-junkie elf (by that logic, Xe’ra is weaker than Kil’jaeden, we didn’t see Illidan one-shot him in the Tomb of Sargeras fight), right?

But yes, they could totally be a cosmic threat as bad as the Legion lol. In the land of imagination, anything is possible.

P.S @Doness, I saw that petty (otherwise why else did you delete it) comment about my helmet. I’ve considered other transmogs, but I like this one.

[Doness-kargath (Doness)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

bout the same Lightbound who haven’t even conquered one planet, aren’t trying to destroy the universe and whose leader can apparently get one-shotted by a fel-junkie elf (by that logic, Xe’ra is weaker than Kil’jaeden, we didn’t see Illidan one-shot him in the Tomb of Sargeras fight), right?

But yes, they could totally be a cosmic threat as bad as the Legion lol. In the land of imagination, anything is possible.

That is why she added “with enough development” at the end. They could potentially go on a “Light crusade” to conquer the cosmos.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

She is wrong. The Burning Legion wanted to destroy the universe (the Old Gods want the same thing, and the Jailer wants to “forge a new reality”). Worst-case scenario, Yrel’s group wants a universe brought under the rule of the Light (by force if necessary), which is still the lesser of two evils by far.

Also, the Burning Legion’s leader, Sargeras, could cut planets in half with a single blow. The Lightbound’s leader could get one-shotted by Illidan (who couldn’t even one-shot Sargeras’ lieutenant, Kil’jaeden).

There’s also minor differences such as the effects of Lightforging and Fel (demons give birth to demons, but Lightforged people have non-Lightforged offspring).

[Raselle-kargath (Raselle)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The Burning Legion wanted to destroy the universe (the Old Gods want the same thing, and the Jailer wants to “forge a new reality”).

Well, arguably the Void Lords and Jailer share similar goals that aren’t exactly “destroy the universe”; both seem to want to “reformat” reality by one means or another into something more in line with their preferences, with Zovaal wishing to undo the First Ones’ works and the Void Lords basically wanting to turn our plane of reality into more of their own. They’re each striving for a different universe in which their designs are the only designs that exist.

Thus far only the Legion’s actually had a mission statement of literally destroying the universe for the very sake of there no longer being any universe left at all, because Sargeras’ discovery of the Void Lords’ machinations convinced him that no amount of changing things will ever suffice and simply burning down everything everywhere to nothingness is the only way to be sure that the inherent “flaw” of the Void can’t ever assert itself again.

The Jailer and Void Lords each want to remake the universe because they think it can be remade, while Sargeras’ goals skew more toward annihilating the current universe and making sure there can never be another one again because he doesn’t really think the universe can exist at all without possessing the inherent fault of the Void.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Cursewords-tichondrius

Are they christened part of your little hate squad, as well? Ever stop to think that maybe when you make threads on a public discussion forum, it may garner replies that disagree with your statements?

You call it living rent free in the heads of others… but you made a thread to discuss the lore on a public discussion forum. These are the replies you got.

He just wants an echo chamber. And nothing is more clearer than that than this thread.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

which is still the lesser of two evils by far.

But what exactly is evil and how can someone be more evil than another? Evil is still evil. People really need to get rid of this notion that “the lesser of two evils is a good option”. They are still evil. You are basically saying that a universe devoid of free will by having everyone be a mindless puppet of the light is less evil and therefore okay than simply destroying the universe. Both are evil acts regardless.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

P.S @Doness, I saw that petty (otherwise why else did you delete it) comment about my helmet.

Oh the delightful irony of you calling someone petty for deleting a comment, but get all defensive when someone calls you out for doing the same thing (the deleting the comment part, not the calling someone petty. I thought I should clarify what I meant).

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

The Void Lords are reminiscent of the Outer Gods from the Cthulhu Mythos/Yogg-Sothothery. According to the Chronicles, they are merciless and cruel beyond imagination, they seek only to twist reality into a realm of eternal torment, and ultimately to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself. They sent the Old Gods to eat planets and make a Void Titan to destroy the universe. The new Broker book on the cosmos hasn’t retconned that out.

@Denona-khazgoroth

But what exactly is evil and how can someone be more evil than another? Evil is still evil. People really need to get rid of this notion that “the lesser of two evils is a good option”. They are still evil. You are basically saying that a universe devoid of free will by having everyone be a mindless puppet of the light is less evil and therefore okay than simply destroying the universe. Both are evil acts regardless.

Clever lol, attaching criticisms of me to a discussion of the thread’s topic, but it won’t work again. If I wanted an echo chamber, I wouldn’t be letting you and all those other people who disagree with me comment, @Denona; I would’ve deleted the thread.

Reanutus argued the Light could be as bad as the Legion, so I was showing how that argument was wrong. Also, the idea that the Light is trying to eradicate free will is an unproven assumption. Unity does not equal conformity.

I was calling the comment itself petty, not calling him petty for deleting it.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

Reanutus argued the Light could be as bad as the Legion, so I was showing how that argument was wrong.

You didn’t really achieve that by saying it was the lesser of two evils. You basically agreed that it is evil. Lesser or not, it is still evil.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

attaching criticisms of me to a discussion of the thread’s topic, but it won’t work again.

And where exactly is the criticism of you in that part you just quoted?

[Raselle-kargath (Raselle)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The Void Lords are reminiscent of the Outer Gods from the Cthulhu Mythos/Yogg-Sothothery. According to the Chronicles, they are merciless and cruel beyond imagination, they seek only to twist reality into a realm of eternal torment, and ultimately to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself. They sent the Old Gods to eat planets and make a Void Titan to destroy the universe. The new Broker book on the cosmos hasn’t retconned that out.

Right, but it’s not so much just “destroying the universe” as creating a Void Titan who can alter enough of its composition sufficiently to allow the Void Lords themselves to cross over and lay claim to our reality themselves.

They still want the universe to exist; they just want it to exist in a state that’s more conducive to their own nature and under their control. Sargeras wants to outright permanently erase everything so there’s nothing left for anyone to control, because in his estimation no universe at all is preferable to allowing for the possibility that the Void Lords might someday successfully claim it.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

But once they claim reality for themselves, they ultimately plan to devour all matter and energy and the universe itself.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Renautus-arathor

I apparently pay $150 in subscription fees just to brigade Thadeus.

Also apparently me,you,Aki and denona have nothing else better to do than follow him around

[Erevien-aegwynn]

This thread shows once more how fragile the alliance’s ego is when it comes to give them the same treatment the Horde has suffered from the past decade. You reap what you sow.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Denona-khazgoroth

You didn’t really achieve that by saying it was the lesser of two evils. You basically agreed that it is evil. Lesser or not, it is still evil.

I was speaking hypothetically regarding Renautus’ scenario since this is a discussion thread, not an echo chamber.

[Renautus-arathor]

This man has singled me out twice now in two threads and all I did in this thread was make a damn joke.

I wasn’t saying anything new just reaffirming the same opinion of everyone else in this thread.

There’s absolutely no way to spin what Xe’ra did to Illidan as a good thing.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

He’s being super creepy now.