A better expansion idea than “Light Crusade”

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

I understand where Thadeus is coming from. He’s anxious that any narrative focusing on the Light as an antagonistic force would devolve into some kind of hamfisted anti-religious or anti-faith message. I sort of agree with that sentiment because I think that the “they look good but they’re EVIL and the sheeple don’t see it” thing is tired and is precisely the kind of edgelord thing that Blizzard would go for.

It’s not Blizzard anymore it’s a division of Hasbro, and Hasbro isn’t going to roll that way.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

It should be noted that this isn’t the first time you’ve theorizied in this thread about me in an effort to try and discredit me that ended up wrong. Just a thing people should keep mind as they continue reading.

Believe it or not, my intention wasn’t to discredit you. I noticed some parallels and shared my suspicion.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

We’ve had all kinds of villains wielding just about every cosmic power source throughout Warcraft’s history. That doesn’t mean we can’t have an expansion where the main story’s focus is on a villain/threat that wields with Light.

How can you know I won’t change your mind unless you’ve already determined you’re not going to change it? You can’t see the future.

We’re on opposite sides of the issue, but not because I decided to oppose you. I and many others- after looking at the actual lore and story turns WoW was going down- saw the potential groundwork for an expansion likely involving involving Xe’ra, Lightbound and other elements as far back as Legion and early BfA. We came to the conclusion based on the evidence. Plus the developers have come out as saying that what Xe’ra wants isn’t good for Azeroth.

And obviously you see it all too. That’s why so many of your threads are about trying to discredit it. I don’t oppose you because of you. You’re just wrong.

You really need to stop blaming you being wrong on other people.

Because you’re rehashing the same arguments and ignoring what a poor job of storytelling Blizzard has done so far regarding this. My problem is the groundwork for this “Yrel’s Holy Terror” type expansion relies on retcons and bad writing.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t move the goal posts. I’ve stated several times in the past, that Turalyon being a villain would be the work of Xe’ra’s influence and that he’s likely to end up breaking free at some point, but at some point, I think it not just possible, but likely he’ll be an antagonist.

First you tried to argue that Turalyon was a Light fanatic. When that was disproven, you switched to he’d be manipulated by AU Xe’ra. That’s what I referred to when I said you moved the goalposts.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

The Nerubians we encounter in Northrend are non-vilainous, thus fulfilling an example of non-villainous Void entities by your definition. So we know they’re that at least.

Not all humans, dwarves and gnomes followed the Old Gods, but many did. And many still do. We’ve fought plenty of them over the course of WoW. Creating humans, dwarves, gnomes and other creatures susceptible to the Old Gods influence was the whole point of the Curse of Flesh- and it worked.

You’re possibly being right about nerubians. Possibly., That doesn’t make humans, Dwarfs and Gnomes are still no more Void entities than Titanforged. Repeating your claim doesn’t make it true.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

My claim was correct. You just turned right back around and acted as if your show of good faith was actually something you never actually intended in the first place. Is it really a show of good faith when you didn’t intend to do it and when it ultimately works against your intentions, you accuse the other party of forcing you into it?

Wrong.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

But I wasn’t playing semantics. The Light does feed off conviction. You’re the one trying to argue that the Light isn’t related to conviction, it’s all about “willpower” and “faith”, as if those aren’t common synonyms of conviction or that a dictionary definition of faith doesn’t include something that is believed especially with strong conviction.like

And Antipathy is not a synonym for disbelief. Antipathy is deep dislike, hatred, bitterness, rancor, etc. Not lack of belief or conviction or anything of the sort.

I was wrong about antipathy’s synonyms. Still doesn’t mean the Light feeds on conviction.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I wouldn’t rest your case there.

Because he doesn’t renounce the things that identify them as Scarlets as a whole or concern what actually makes the Scarlets or even the Crusade specifically dangerous. They’re still wearing the Scarlets’ uniforms, for goodness sake!

And as someone who plays a Death Knight, you should know that just because you get a quest to slaughter a bunch of Scarlets, it doesn’t mean Scarlets are gone from showing up in future expansions.

Let me get this straight. The founder of the Scarlet Onslaught, Brigitte Abbendis herself, literally declares the Scarlet Crusade over, her and her followers abandon the Scarlet Crusade and their core goal of reclaiming Lorderaen… and you think that’s not a renunciation?

The Scarlet Crusade (you’re moving the goalposts by lumping them all together as Scarlets) is gone when the lore states you wipe out the last of them in an in-game quest. When did the newly-founded Scarlet Onslaught get time to change their uniform as they were fleeing and being slaughtered by the Death Knights of Acherus?

You’re in denial here.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I told you where the quotes were. You even FOUND the quotes. And you’re still asking me where the quotes are. You just said the 12 people who liked my other post were people who don’t like you and made no attempt to differentiate who was what. I know the difference between all and most. You don’t seem to.

And this continues your pattern of trying to blame your own bad arguments on others.

You’re lying about my words. I clearly said only some of those 12 people had a grudge against me. I wasn’t tarring all of them with the same brush, hence why I asked you about the difference between “all” and “most”.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Yes I accuse you of not understanding how religion and politics interact historically because clearly did not know about the political revolutions the Protestant reformations. That’s High school level stuff. And you couldn’t even be bothered to Google it yourself. You don’t get to try and talk down about anyone’s understanding of politics.

You’re in denial here too, and you know it. For one, I clearly stated a key details of the Reformations with Martin Luther’s Ninety-Five Theses.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

It’s not a trap. You’re just wrong and you keep making wrong arguments.

*No. Because the Scarlet Cruasde indeed approved of Shadow Priests like the Scarlet Onslaught. Demetria was a chief advisor in the Crusade. So that’s something the Onslaught didn’t renounce.

*Yes. The Scarlet Onslaught went to Northrend as part of their Scarlet’s battle against Undead. Only fighting Undead in Lordaeron and nowhere else isn’t a Scarlet thing, though. So again, not something the Onslaught renounced.

*No. As Scarlet brother doesn’t “only recruit men.” So another thing they Onslaught didn’t renounce.

You were trying to get me to say something so you could try and twist it to make it sound like I said something agreeing with you here.

• Shadow Priests were one of several points of contention between the Scarlet Crusade and the Scarlet Onslaught.
• Explain this; why did the founder of the Scarlet Onslaught outright say “the Scarlet Crusade is no more”? (actual in-game quote)
• The Scarlet Crusade recruited men and women (like Inquisitor Whitemane). The Scarlet Onslaught recruited men and women (and was founded by a woman). The Scarlet Brotherhood is men only, or does the word “Brotherhood” mean something else in your world?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I don’t hate Xe’ra. I just see what Blizzard’s doing narratively with her. The devs have been pretty explicit in showing and even telling us in an interview that the Light isn’t all good and that what she wants isn’t good for Azeroth.

She wasn’t honest about her plans to forcibly lightforge him against his will until she had already sprung it on him. And there’s no mental gymnastics involved in understanding how WoW has repeatedly communicated now that the Light is all about conviction and a tendency towards seeing only one possibility to the exclusion of others- so it’s not surprising that Xe’ra would be so convinced she’s on the right that she can’t even see how she’s doing bad things.

There’s probably a lesson there about extremism.

For someone who supposedly doesn’t hate Xe’ra, you’re quick to assume the worst of that naaru.

Xe’ra trying to Lightforge Edgydan by force was last-minute improvisation, not part of a plan.

A lesson about extremism? How original of Blizzard and totally not cliché’! (It’s not like we haven’t heard this before with the Tal’Drim Protoss, Malthael’s Reapers, the Black Empire…)

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Every expansion introduces new characters to the game and retcons past events to justify the current plot. Even an expansion they’d do instead of a Light Crusade would do it. That’s not a reason not to do any given expansion.

The fact remains the way it’s been done lately is unoriginal and becoming increasingly unpopular.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You didn’t even know that the Reformation came with political consequences that saw the overthrow of entire dynasties and machinations by various nobles and needed me to explain it to you!

No, I already knew that. I was focusing more on specific aspects. And you gave less; didn’t even name-drop Martin Luther.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

The Paladin Orders of the “Grand Alliance” don’t seem to have the same fervor the Scarlets do. The fervor that’s allowed them to come back from “being wiped out” over and over again, expansion after expansion because apparently their message resonates with enough people that they can rally new recruits to their cause.

Also, you know, Blizzard’s not going to just throw all of the Church and Silver Hand under the bus like that when the Scarlets and a bunch of Noblemen are right there.

We didn’t think they’d throw Yrel and Xe’ra under the bus like that either… but here we are.
We can’t say the Paladin Orders of the “Grand Alliance” don’t have the same fervour when we haven’t seen how they react to a similar situation.

The Scarlet Crusade wasn’t wiped out repeatedly. Their numbers dwindled across expansions. In WotLK some broke away and formed the Scarlet Onslaught. After that those who were left kept dwindling until they were actually wiped out in Legion.

After Legion, the Scarlet Onslaught’s numbers were severely depleted but there’s a handful left in Northrend and a few copycats started calling themselves “the Scarlet Brotherhood” made their own group.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

No, I’m trying to argue that putting the onus on some combination of Xe’ra, Scarlets, and the House of Nobles and other extremist factors instigating a major conflict with the Horde is better than putting it all on Turalyon, the Church of the Light and Silver Hand.

YOU’RE the one trying to argue that Turalyon doesn’t need Xe’ra or the Scarlets to start wiping out people to retake Lordaeron and that he and the Silver Hand are capable of just doing it themselves.

While I oppose the idea, I would be more at ease if you were in charge of writing Blizzard’s Light Crusade expansion. You’d make a more tolerable story. But you’re not on the dev team.

I never said Turalyon would try to wipe people out. I said he’s still wants to retake Lorderaen. He’d still want that even if he wasn’t a Light worshipper.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

At it’s height, around some 100,000 square kilometers. The region commonly referred to as the Middle East makes up a little over 6% of the world’s landmass and population respectively. No, ISIS didn’t represent an existential threat to France, Russia, China or Australia in a war. Their current Caliph is still at large. ISIS continues operating, not just in parts of Iraq and Syria that are not completely under control, but has an African branch that has been gaining territory in parts of Nigeria and Mozambique.

Again, I’ve had to explain things to you that you should either know or could have learned from a simple Google search, thus showing how little you actually know about ISIS. Even as you continue to incorrectly insist that the organization was never actually of any threat or concern.

Are you really stiill trying to argue that because ISIS is something that people could have and should have ignored? And that people can safely begin to ignore their current and future activities? Simply because it was incapable of toppling countries like Russia, China or Australia and installing regimes there that they were?

I asked you for information I know to get you to re-examine your own arguments.

ISIS is not a global threat. They can’t even control all of the Middle-East.

You left out the fact that in March 2019, ISIS/ISIL had lost most of its territory in its former core areas in Syria and Iraq, and was reduced to a desert pocket as well as insurgent cells, which they lost in September 2020. They’re a shadow of their former selves; two steps forward, five steps back, that’s ISIS today.

Just as ISIS isn’t going to take over the world in their current state, the Scarlet Onslaught, the Scarlet Brotherhood and Stomwind’s nobles combined are still not going to be a threat to Azeroth. They get a few visits from the Uncrowned’s agents… problem solved.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

All those Youtube commentators used Yin and and Yang and why it means the Light and the Void have to be the same power level for the Light to be considered an antagonist? I’ve never seen it. I’ve only ever seen it used it in the sense that both are fundamental elements of the universe that exist in balance. Because that’s how Yin and Yang work, as you explained. And the Light or Void being out balance would be something that needs to be corrected, which has nothing to do with either being all good or all bad.

The incorrect argument that Yin and Yang means that one is bad and one is good and they have to be of equal power or else the Light can’t be a threat is just your argument.

If they exist in balance they have to have equal power to maintain that balance, especially if they’re antithetical to each other as the Light and Void are, that’s logic.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

So yeah, like I said: The Warcraft franchise started with an interdimensional invasion and has featured antagonistic immortal entities wielding the powers of Arcane, Light, Void, Fel, Death, the Elements, and other cosmic powers before. The first expansion in WoW saw us going to another world to fight a cosmos spanning threat. It’s possible to have a story including cosmic power threats and still tell a better story than Shadowlands.

It’s still cliche, and thus not going to be the big draw.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Archaedas and Mimiron put the re-origination technology there in the first place. Amman’thul himself put Odyn and Algalon in their positions. Again, stuff you can learn from looking it up on Wikipedia and that you don’t need me to explain to you. Although it does show that you have no idea what you’re actually talking about in trying to attribute these things to the Pantheon in their entirety.

And you just keep trying to downplay or justify the genocide Xe’ra and Yrel are perpetrating. As if their “Join or die” approach isn’t wiping a lot of people out for what Yrel herself, calls “…upon you all to ensure that the future promised by the Light Mother is fulfilled. Purge the infection that prevents Draenor’s heart from being whole.”

I don’t hate Turalyon. I’m just holding him to the same standards I do all the other characters. A better question would be why do you keep trying to downplay and justify the actions of genocidal characters? You’re supposed to be anti-edgy.

I asked you for information I know to get you to re-examine your own arguments.

Who gave Archaedas and Mimiron their orders to put the technology there? What was Algalon referring to when he “a million million lives wasted” in Ulduar? I know the answers, but I want to hear you say it.

If you don’t hate Turalyon, why are you so unwilling to relinquish the idea of him being an antagonist?

I’m citing the lore that gets ignored by the writers. Besides it wouldn’t be the first time genocidal characters get whitewashed by Blizz (eg; retconning Sargeras into forming the Legion to defeat the Void and don’t get me started on Sylvanas).

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

No more so than any other expansion, really.

Did you just admit that Light Crusade relies on retcons, bad writing and railroading?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

I already have. You pointed out more. Remember how we had this talk earlier about you asking for basic information to be explained to you. Or the example above where I literally pointed to the second post in this thread, and you still asked for evidence? And you say there’s a few examples, but can’t be bothered to name them- not even to prove me wrong in my claim i can name three times as many.

in continuing to ask me to give you more examples of things you have already admitted exist, you’re playing dumb and denying they do.

And we’re supposed to be listening to advise on how Blizzard’s story should go from you- who can’t even identify the franchise major recurring themes?

That wasn’t even 6 examples. Pretend I’m an idiot… who am I kidding, you probably already are (and might actually believe it’s true lol) and give me the examples again.

Those few examples you and I shared are a fraction of the many groups in the game. And most don’t consist of major character or have a big impact on the plot.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You claim I put words in your mouth because you say stuff that you realize later is wrong and then try to correct it. I let you, largely because I know the next thing you’re going to say is just going to contradict your earlier point or be just as wrong.

Case in point: You’re still trying to act like all the Magh’har and the rest of Draenor deserve the genocide the Lightbound are perpetrating against them because of what SOME Mag’har did 30 years prior. Even though they were opposed by other Mag’har.

I don’t know what you think “nuance” is, but coming up with reasons why “genocide is actually okay sometimes” and acting like the Mag’har deserve what’s happening to them isn’t “nuance”. Making Yrel into a genocidal leader of her own design rather than having her faith be exploited isn’t doing her character any favors, as you seem to think. You keep trying to claim you don’t like edgy stuff.

Your claim about me is wrong, and you know it. The Mag’har don’t deserve genocide if it’s happening. I’m also saying Yrel doing this is as bad as Daenerys burning King’s Landing in Season 8.

Genocide on the rest of Draenor? The Ogres joined willingly, remember? We don’t know what happened to the primals, saberon and the arrakoa. Don’t pretend the botani allowed peaceful co-existence with non-botani (remember why Aggramar made the Breakers).

Yrel “having her faith exploited” doesn’t add nuance unless the story acknowledges there’s legitimate reasons for her holy war and/or her grievances with the Mag’har… which it doesn’t.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Well then you don’t know how to identify staple themes in the media you consume. Even media you decry as being incredibly simplistic and lacking in nuance.

Do you have actual facts to back this claim up?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

Lightforging is brainwashing. I’ve shown how it does the exact same thing. But just like all this other stuff, you just refuse to accept things that contradict how you want the Light to be in the setting rather than how it’s been portrayed.

Because Xe’ra isn’t like Daenerys. Daenerys at least got to spend several seasons doing good and bad stuff, while Xe’ra’s introduction saw her manipulate us into bringing him Illidan so she could try to immediately Lightforged him against his will before getting destroyed. And then her AU self started a genocide. Xe’ra’s more like a character who shows you’re they’re a jerk by the end of the first episode and in their next appearance, they’re leading a genocide.

And you’re trying to accuse them of being edgelords while you’re over here trying to argue about why Xe’ra and Yrel should be protrayed- at the very least non-villainous- for engaging in genocide and nonconsensual transmogrificaiton.

You love this Lightforging headcanon of yours.

You can’t blame an MU character for an AU character’s actions and vice versa. MU Grom isn’t to blame for the Iron Horde. AU Grom isn’t to blame for drinking Mannoroth’s blood. AU Xe’ra isn’t to blame for trying to Lightforge Illidan. MU Xe’ra isn’t to blame for what happened AU Draenor. Do you understand that?

I’m saying Blizz portraying Yrel and Xe’ra the way they have is bad writing.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

And yes, your arguments were shot down. That’s why you keep abandoning threads and making new ones. As you’re asking my opinion, I’d rather you not abandon the threads to begin with, considering you simply end up making more covering the same bad arguments over and over again.

Keep telling yourself that lol

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

We see the things Greyah says are happening actually happening. She doesn’t “omit” the Iron Horde because they’ve been gone for 30 years and aren’t involved anymore. The Iron Horde was gone before she was even born. She is surprised to discover there are Draenei on Azeroth, and while she thinks they’re like Lightbound, when the Horde and Alliance make pace, she doesn’t continue waging war on them.

We’re told they’re being converted and wiped out and shown the converts helping wipe pout their own people and refer to them as savages… That’s not a contradiction. That’s more corroborating evidence.

When does Geya’rah bring up the Iron Horde? Especially since she’s tooling around with the former leader of the Iron Horde.

What things does Geya’rah say that we see?

Do we see any Mag’har being Lightforged by force like Illidan was? Or are certain fans jumping to conclusions? I know the answer, but I want to hear you say it.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

There were fur collars and hoods on Lightforged Draenei in Legion.
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/screenshots/normal/642856-enstraa.jpg
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=125349/enstraa
I got that from the last thread you abandoned by the way, where you kept dishonestly nsisting that the Lightbound preserved Mag’har clothing as well.

The same thread where I explain, we see no mention of Orcish or use of any Orcish terms that the other Mag’har continue to use.

And yet here you are, in another thread, making the same incorrect statements and bad arguments.

While I thank you about the fur collars, the fact remains in that same thread I pointed out we can’t determine either way about the language, so you moved on to other points.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

But at the time, Illidan was a commander in the joint forces fighting the Legion. And the leadr of the revived elite Illidari.

And you keep trying to call him edgelord while you’re over here trying to justify and argue the nuances of genocide, of all things.

Illidan only commanded the Illidari. He was an ally to the Army of the Light (stupidly allowed to remain after edgelording their leader to death, but still).

How is Illidan an edgelord? Let me count the ways;
• Power fantasy character? Check.
• Mocks faith? Check.
• Contempt for redemption? Check.
• Problems with authority? That’s a big check.
• Heavily scarred? “I am my scars”
• Tattoos? Check.
• Demonic mutations? Big check.
• Got an addiction? Check.
• Dark clothes? Check.
• “Dangerous” sounding name? Check.

Some of those traits on their own don’t make an edgelord, but they add up.

He’s not as bad as Sylvanas or Deathwing, but still top 5 WoW edgelords.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

None of that prevents them from having good side Light users teaming up with us to oppose Xe’ra and her machinations/minions.

You try to talk down on Blizzard for lacking nuance, but if anything, you’re showing that you’re not only not that aware of the many finer details of Blizzard’s lore, but don’t understand political nuance or the game’s many recurring thematic elements.

Your fondation for not liking the idea of Light Crusade expansion, deciding your mind can’t be changed, and then working backwards trying to come up with reasons (which are wrong) about why nobody else should entertain the idea either.

My foundation isn’t my dislike, but the story reasons behind those feelings. Thankfully not. But will Blizzard do it? We’re seeing more and more examples of sloppy storytelling, and even this so-called “nuanced” story relies on retcons and railroading.

What will you do if the next expansion is Light Crusade, and it turns out to be the one-sided and preachy “Yrel’s Holy Terror”-type expansion?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

It doesn’t go against his character if she manipulates him, especially if he has the possibility of breaking free of that manipulation later thanks to Aleria.

Because he’d totally trust a more extreme AU version after disagreeing with the comparatively moderate MU version, eh lol?

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You’re trying to argue that Turalyon wouldn’t and shouldn’t have deserted from the army simply due to a disagreement with Xe’ra about imprisoning his girlfriend for fraternizing with her enemy, but that he would desert the army over a disagreement with Xe’ra because she urges him to wage war on his previous enemies and her enemies.

Turalyon served MU Xe’ra, and MU Xe’ra is dead. Remember, you can’t blame MU characters for what their AU versions do and vice versa.

@Tammy-wyrmrest-accord

You keep shooting down every idea that would include Alliance characters and Light based characters being involved as antagonistic in favor of one where the Alliance gets to commit genocide and start wars, but the characters doing it don’t have to be the bad guys. You claim to be open to the Scarlets, but then also try to argue the Scarlets are no more. If you were fine with all of it and didn’t care, you wouldn’t be trying to shut the discussion down so desperately.

I keep shooting down the ideas because they rely on poor writing. If the Light was “morally grey” or “amoral” from the get-go, that would be different. But that is not the case. I am open to the Scarlet Crusade as Light-wielding antagonists, but they were wiped out despite your denials.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The Scarlet Crusade (you’re moving the goalposts by lumping them all together as Scarlets) is gone when the lore states you wipe out the last of them in an in-game quest. When did the newly-founded Scarlet Onslaught get time to change their uniform as they were fleeing and being slaughtered by the Death Knights of Acherus?

You’re in denial here.

Does someone want to tell him about the Scarlet Pilgrims in Dalaran during Legion? No? Okay than.

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

We’ve already discussed the Scarlet Pilgrims. Funny that you came straight here after an argument on another thread didn’t go your way, Micah lol

[Micâh-moon-guard]

And what arguement do you think we had in another thread? Or you confusing me for someone else? Wouldn’t be the first time you done this

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Arguments like this one.

A recent lawsuit accuses the WoW team of being part of a "frat boy culture" - does that impact the story?

The biggest problem with this argument? Scripture states what work the Jewish slaves were put to, and it wasn’t building the pyramids. “So they put slave masters over them to oppress them with forced labor, and they built Pithom and Rameses as store cities for Pharaoh.” Exodus 1:11 “They made their lives bitter with harsh labor in brick and mortar and with all kinds of work in the fields; in all their harsh labor the Egyptians worked them ruthlessly.” Exodus 1:14 "The king of Egypt said to …

Coming here to try and attack me after that argument went south is petty, and a classic left-wing ideologue tactic too (jump ship and look for another angle of attack when the previous one fails)

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Assuming my political affiliation based on an argument? Way to not be taken serious bud. Pat We’re done here. You’ve shown you have no interest in actually paying attention and no one is attacking you, so put the victim and Christian persecution card away

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Anyone can click that hyperlink and see you and several others were.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Saying the Jews weren’t slaves isn’t a attack on you…You need some thick skin if you think that was a personal attack. Grow up dude

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

Here’s a couple of times you had a go at me (and these are the nicer ones);

A recent lawsuit accuses the WoW team of being part of a "frat boy culture" - does that impact the story?

Christmas was originally a roman pagan holiday called Saturnalia and was celebrated from Dec 17th to the 25th. Usually involving sacrifices, getting drunk and other….rather crude stuff by todays standards. But you know…facts, pain in the butt amiright?

A recent lawsuit accuses the WoW team of being part of a "frat boy culture" - does that impact the story?

They stole and rewrote my peoples traditions to make it easier to convert them to Christianity. For someone who claims to be a Christian you have a remarkable lack of knowledge on your own faith and the history surrounding it.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Again, no one is attacking you. Drop the victim complex and grow up

[Cursewords-tichondrius (Cursewords)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

and you know it.

Oi vey, this again.

It is almost like a bot.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

The Scarlet Crusade (you’re moving the goalposts by lumping them all together as Scarlets) is gone when the lore states you wipe out the last of them in an in-game quest. When did the newly-founded Scarlet Onslaught get time to change their uniform as they were fleeing and being slaughtered by the Death Knights of Acherus?

You’re in denial here.

Magic. Just as StarFleet changes it’s uniforms with every series or in some cases every season. The Onslaught’s uniforms change to establish their Cataclysm branding. With all the magic being thrown around, how they manage it is a trivial affair.

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

For someone who supposedly doesn’t hate Xe’ra, you’re quick to assume the worst of that naaru.

X’era is clearly modeled after Babylon 5’s Dark Kosh who represented the main attitudes of the Vorlon people, their inflexible adherence to Law over Chaos. The prior Kosh… the one who took the time to understand the Younger Races as much as any Vorlon did… he was the minority.

X’era after all her time among mortals, still can’t empahthise with them. Her mind touch has all of the finesse of a sledgehammer. After all on her first contact with the Player she puts the character into a 3 day coma and even after wards her every contact with the player is a moment of agony.

After all the trouble she takes to get the player to understand Illidan, it’s clear that at the final analysis, she herself refuses to accept him on his own terms and decides to remake him… reprogram him as she saw fit. If that doesn’t drive home the point, her treatment of Alleria and manipulation of Turalyon should.

What happened to her was just desserts… just as what ultimately happened to Dark Kosh.

[Yvenathilm-fenris (Yvenathilm)]

Blizzard is Activision not Hasbro…

Hasbro despite making deals with Activision concerning Transformers hasn’t bought out the Company.

Blizzard also hired agents from Disney by the way.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Yvenathilm-fenris

Blizzard is Activision not Hasbro…

True, but a corp is a corp.
[quote=“A recent lawsuit accuses the WoW team of being part of a “frat boy culture” - does that impact the story?, post:1824, topic:1042859”]
Christmas was originally a roman pagan holiday called Saturnalia and was celebrated from Dec 17th to the 25th. Usually involving sacrifices, getting drunk and other….rather crude stuff by todays standards. But you know…facts, pain in the butt amiright?
[/quote]

Actually what they were really aiming at was the cult of Mithras which was the Church’s biggest rival in the Roman empire, and was very popular with the lay military. The old classic gods usually associated with Rome and Greece had long fallen out of favor despite what Shakespeare would have you believe.

Mithraism

Mithras’ big day was December 25th in the old Roman calendar. Others say that it was The festival of Natalis Invicti , the holy day devoted to the Sun, also held on that day.

The Christmas Tree part was what was lifted from the Celtic pagans.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

The Christmas tree idea came about because Pagans used to bring in trees and decorate them so the wood spirits had a warm place to stay during the winter. It’s adorable to think about

[Thadeus-caelestrasz]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

Magic. Just as StarFleet changes it’s uniforms with every series or in some cases every season. The Onslaught’s uniforms change to establish their Cataclysm branding. With all the magic being thrown around, how they manage it is a trivial affair.

While magic would work, that doesn’t change the fact that the Scarlet Crusade were wiped out in Legion, or that the Scarlet Onslaught broke away from them and are no longer the Scarlet Crusade.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

X’era is clearly modeled after Babylon 5’s Dark Kosh who represented the main attitudes of the Vorlon people, their inflexible adherence to Law over Chaos. The prior Kosh… the one who took the time to understand the Younger Races as much as any Vorlon did… he was the minority.

I wonder if that was always how the Vorlons were intended to be written, or whether making the Vorlons rigid was a change in Babylon 5. Interesting side note, the Vorlons won their conflict with the Shadows, they just didn’t get to reap the benefits as their “students” saw they’d lost sight of their goals turned against them.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

X’era after all her time among mortals, still can’t empahthise with them. Her mind touch has all of the finesse of a sledgehammer. After all on her first contact with the Player she puts the character into a 3 day coma and even after wards her every contact with the player is a moment of agony.

The 3 day coma wasn’t planned. That happened after the player character touched Elune’s Tear to Xe’ra’s core and got a vision of her across the astral plane. You’re assuming it was possible for Xe’ra to do that contact without pain.

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

After all the trouble she takes to get the player to understand Illidan, it’s clear that at the final analysis, she herself refuses to accept him on his own terms and decides to remake him… reprogram him as she saw fit. If that doesn’t drive home the point, her treatment of Alleria and manipulation of Turalyon should.

Swapping his magic is not reprogramming, Alleria herself realizes she’s getting in over her head with the Void and what manipulation of Turalyon?

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

What happened to her was just desserts… just as what ultimately happened to Dark Kosh.

So Xe’ra saved Illidan’s life twice, once from Kil’jaeden (in the novel ‘Illidan’) and once from Helya (in her Legion quest chain, Gul’dan gave Helya his soul to imprison him), but it’s “just desserts” for her to get killed by him? Ever read “The Farmer and the Viper” and know what the moral of that story is? Hint, Xe’ra’s not the viper in the story.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

and a classic left-wing ideologue tactic too (jump ship and look for another angle of attack when the previous one fails)

That isn’t exclusive to the left… and you know that.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

@Thadeus-caelestrasz

So Xe’ra saved Illidan’s life twice, once from Kil’jaeden (in the novel ‘Illidan’) and once from Helya (in her Legion quest chain, Gul’dan gave Helya his soul to imprison him), but it’s “just desserts” for her to get killed by him? Ever read “The Farmer and the Viper” and know what the moral of that story is? Hint, Xe’ra’s not the viper in the story.

So what? That does not give her ownership.

Like the saying goes, “NO” means “NO”. And she had ample opportunity to back off.

She wrote her own ending

[Raselle-kargath (Raselle)]

@Drahliana-earthen-ring

She wrote her own ending

In fairness, since she was operating according to some prophecy with an outcome we never definitively got to see, it’s also possible she wrote that ending on purpose.

When dealing with characters knowingly acting to fulfill prophecy, it can be hard to tell when they’re trying to make it happen directly, or when they’re trying to drive someone else to make it happen in their stead.

So her death at Illidan’s hands could very well be exactly what she wanted to happen, meaning that successfully converting him to the Light would have actually prevented the future she sought to bring about.