314 total according to your io page, which just means you play the game.
Not going by tier list, I’m going by logic. Hpally and Disc (which are both meta) both do more damage than Resto Druid, while still providing the same if not more throughput healing.
Prot Paladin has ridiculous damage, really strong CDs, but less raw mitigation than Bear and less mobility than DH. That’s the ONLY reason they are not considered “hard meta”.
It’s a 16 :^) but yeah
314 timed, RIOs season summary includes untimed completed runs as well.
You are the one who used “Tier” in your argument. Now you are saying you’re not using a tier list? How high are you? Out of the 14 runs I did this season, 3 of them were druids that pugs brought. Your perception of “non-meta” being overlooked is misplaced and is more likely due to your lack of experience and low io.
Prot Paladin has never been considered meta this expansion and all the fires I tried to take out in the paladin sub-forum earlier in season 1 shows that.
Yeah and I have a 22.
Babies first expansion and you’re already being an elitist 
unlucky. I’ve boosted people on my alts to higher than your peak.
Wrong again, I see a pattern here. Played Vanilla, BC, WoTLK, and some of Legion. Try again. Can you explain how I am being elitist? I am the one saying all classes and specs are viable. If I was elitist, I would have rerolled.
You, boosting. Lol. Coming some someone who couldn’t get past 1k io in BFA seasons 1-3 and needed all the corruption power to actually push keys in season 4.
Oh man :^) is that a challenge? I actually didn’t play for the majority of BFA, like a lot of the playerbase, because 8.1 - 8.2.5 was an absolute joke. Same as 9.0 - 9.0.5 was a joke so I stopped playing then too.
I came back because I was recruited for a prog team, got CE and then pushed keys with a group of casual friends.
I’m not going to repeat myself
I like challenges.
It’s not repeating if you never said it to begin with.
Secondary I did the exact same thing in post-season, but I’m sure that was overlooked, along with my 2 chested 24. Cherry picking is wild, especially from someone who peaked at less than half of what I did casually 2 seasons in a row.
Have a good rest of your day, thanks for the thought provoking discussion.
Fwiw, paladin is currently the bottom tank (based on the statistics so far), but the gap is so small it doesn’t really matter.
The Icy-Veins has updated their projection of how tanks rank in 9.1 earlier this week:
- Protection Warrior (S-Tier)
- Vengeance Demon Hunter (A-Tier)
- Protection Paladin (A-Tier)
- Guardian Druid (A-Tier)
- Brewmaster Monk (B-Tier)
- Blood Death Knight (B-Tier)
While Icy-Veins has been very cautious about ranking and putting everyone in the B-Tier or above, I find the tanks’ capabilities differ much more greatly in the actual game. A Blood DK, for example, may need several item levels higher to compete with a Prot Warrior, ceteris paribus.
What do you think? How much is the difference among the tanks?
My 2 Cents.
Prot Paladins are stronger than some people are making them out to to be. My healer friend loves healing me compare to other Prot Paladins because i know how to rotate my CD’s for certain pulls on parts of Mythic+ dungeons which makes a big difference and we can hit Cd’s to make us harder to die and self heal so the healer can catch up on healing for the group.
Final stand, Holy Shield and first avenger are overlooked and can allow for some cheese/gimmicks that changes the game in mythic+ compared to other tanks. Most Prot paladins tend to want to go DPS and trust me i heard it from people telling me i should choose their talents. As tanks we are not DPSer and DPS will always max out so to push faster you should be able to pull bigger. “oh there is a cap on AOE” there is also 2 other people with AOE you’re not the only DPS and if you’re pulling large most likely a paladin is back peddling with consecrated ground. So yes paladins have the tools to do 20’s+
Now my issue with prot paladins isn’t that they are squishier from what everyone is saying its that after each boss or trash pull 90% of the time my group is waiting for my slow butt to pull the next group because i am still walking. Playing something like Warrior/Monk/DH you can shave 5 mins with 5-10 secs here and there. It does make a difference.
Warriors are great but gear dependant. it sucks when the healers don’t want to top you off.
I’ve always had issues people telling my monk she has poor HP and yet it takes 250k worth of damage before any major CD’s to kill her with 0 heals. I had to solo parts of mythic 15+ because they can’t heal more than 3k hps.
Yet everyone is trying to tear apart paladin tanks when people are doing 0 healer 20+ mythics with a paladin tank. There will always be min max and it doesn’t mean something is not viable.
Maybe just pick something you enjoy. In the end the meta will shift and you’re just going to be annoyed
I’ve been running seraphim/dusk and dawn. Probably the most complicated paladin build (not trying to brag, this build has the highest HP management). I have similar dps to the shield of the righteous leggo, more on demand tankiness, the ability to forgo the 6% damage for the steady 4% DR.
But I agree, for the most part. We have plenty of defensive options to be closer to par. That said, tank damage does matter, the same is true for healer damage. Sure, we’re a fraction of a damage player, but it’s night and day when you (for example) have a healer pulling 1.3k vs 800 dps.
This is where there is no point in arguing we are 2 sides of the same coin. I hate dps healers unless its part of their kit to heal.
you find success in doing more damage and i find success in tanking up harder. That is one reason why i am harder on healers when i die because i am almost immortal. I may have an ego but it doesn’t help when healers keep telling me you’re easy to heal and being told twice! that they are happy to heal me because they started to doubt themselves after a run of bad tanks.
I’ve also been told the opposite that i should be pumping more dps and I should rely on my healers more. That is why i bring DPS. I’m not going to do there job and carry them. If I want to pull a whole run i can and DPS better not complain and just do there job and DPS. Sorry I get the DPS that complain during pulls while they can just DPS. If you have time to complain you have time to dps.
Happy Note* I found a new group on horde side and been limit testing with them and there loving there numbers and the healer is asking me to pull bigger in the 13’s at the moment, But i can’t when there is a mini boss in the way Did pull with mimi boss and it failed. Maybe with more gear. Still timed the key
I’m not hard to heal. Just for the record. My healers are pulling 1.5-3k dps while not really worrying about me. My pulls are 12-15 mobs at a time and I’m second or third on damage a lot of the early pull. The idea that you’ll gain 30% defensiveness while sacrificing 10% damage is false and I wouldn’t call 13 dangerous anyway. More realistically, you’re gaining 4-5% defense at the expense of 15-20% damage. Stuff dies faster = having to live for less time.
I couldn’t pull enough to justify the healer just sitting there waiting to heal. The dungeons just aren’t densely packed enough (and aoe cap) to consistently pull enough to have them be lazy.
This is why i say.
There is no point in arguing we are 2 sides of the same coin.
We pull about the same amount because of what is in front of us and i am pretty sure you can pull ardenweld in 2-3 pulls as well. I as well end up sometimes on the damage meter with 4-5k dps over all. you may do more and that is fine. 4-5% more defence is a ton of mitigation when being smacked by the groups we pull. You may feel good on your tank mitigation I just feel better. But things like in HOA when we pull 8 bears I just get my burst out and back peddle. I am not going to sit and dps unless i Have my Final Stand.
That pull my Rogue/Ret/andShaman would pull out 18k dps+. It’s a mess but it’s fun. Now pride is gone and I dont know if i can still do it.
Who knows i May have to change because a lot of my super pulls was based on Pride and if I can’t pull half of ardenweld because of a mini boss is in the way I won’t need to pull as big and wont need as much defences.
Just Proves my point more. META will shift and play what you enjoy.
I had these discussions many times and been told that i am great to heal as well. we are 2 sides of the same coin.
You can’t say this with any level of certainty. You’re making sacrifices I don’t have to to feel probably the same amount of comfort.
My contention was never this. I even stated that I’m using a “never craft” legendary if you look at the guide and also playing a talent that’s listed as “too complicated to manage”.
This point doesn’t separate us, no matter how many times you say it. Play how you’re comfortable, makes no difference to me.
Everyone’s damage matters when you get past the easy keys. Every pull is large then, too. Shaving 10s per pull because the tank and healer are contributing allows you to save cds for the next big pull also devalues the ultra defensive picks. Top paladins were timing 23s with double judgment and blessed hammers while taking hand of the protector and wings cd. I’m not doing that, but it just shows that those super D picks aren’t super necessary, especially when we’re talking about lower key levels.
Yes I can you just said my mitigation is going to be 4-5% better.
It was most of my of my statement from the beginning. However I go Necrolord on my Monk when everyone is going kyrian again. Love them shields. Had a 185 ilvl BMonk i rolled on horde and was close to pushing 15’s. Ill just let me DPS do there job while i focus on not dying.
I dont understand this statement other than you agree. PLay what you want because My build, your build or even someone else janky build will still get you to 20+
You can’t say that either. First statement was subjective the second was a guess. Truth is, you have no clue whether your statements are accurate.
This is arguable if you’re mentality is that damage is the job of the people with a sword next to their picture exclusively.
Then why tell me fake information when you cant support it.
YEP. That is my mentality
You don’t have my mitigation to make that comparison. So no, you can’t.
In NW 13, per logs I had an ehrps or 1238.4 with a total mitigation of 86.01%. Do you have a log to compare or are you going to keep making stuff up?
Why would i need to make stuff up when you are telling me information. You gave me the information stating i will possibly have 4-5% more therefore i would be 4-5% more tankier. Why do you keep back tracking. So logically i would be tankier. Like i said no point in arguing but you keep wanting to even though i admitted i may need to change my build for the new meta since i cant pull half a room with the mini bosses now.
or are you not reading everything i am saying and just selecting thinking i am trying to put you down when it has been you that seem to be on the defence.
do you want me to say you’re right. Ill say that because i don’t care what you run as play what you like as ive been saying before. everything you say has just been proving my point and you keep arguing like what you say is going to change. I don’t understand what you’re trying to tell me anymore. You said i would be 4-5% tankeir and now you’re saying i wont be tankier. I am going by what youre telling and any BS that you call is from you throwing out random numbers. Now are you telling me those numbers are higher??? or are you telling me building tanky wont make me tanky??? which is it? Do tell pls
it seems you’re trying to pick a fight that isnt there.
This quote is from you. I am only agreeing to your words.