Your comment on survival and fire makes no sense. Yes if in the example to give an example surv was top tier aoe dps and fire was top tier st and overall they did comparable yes that is balanced obv that is not the case in today’s meta but an example.
Tank balance is no different some tanks do better at survival when not kiting others better kiting others higher dps.
There is pros and cons to each way and the balance between the tanks is quite good right now as per icyviens.
Not one person said the tanks where equal in all elements only that there toolkits where balanced fact you still don’t get that after it’s been said 4 times this thread really shows how dense you are. And really shows how bad of a judge of balance you are if you can understand that different dosent make something worse.
Yes I did discredit you quite well kinda was the point. You made it easy as said within the first post when you picked to start right of with misquoting and misrepresentating what another said. Not a good way to start of a discusion if you want what you say to be taken as having any value.
now replace survival with X tanking class and replace fire mage with Y tanking class.
they are not balanced, they are not equal, the meta favor one tank more than other, the job favor one tank more than another, the meta-healer synergize with some tank more than other.
and no. the sum of all those difference isn’t anywhere close to a balance.
has never been.
t’s been said 4 times this thread really shows how dense you are.
yet nobody dare to adress them and just repeat a generic platitude that nobody believe in any other sphere of this game.
Again, no one ever used the word equal. Stop trying to slip it into your argument like anyone has. The classes are balanced to what the game was scaled for. Meta’s will always exist and people will flock towards a 1% gain in anything. If a there are 2 classes and there is a 80/20 split in representation, but a 1% difference, is that not balanced?
The meta favouring one tank or the other is not the tanks not being balanced but do keep showing your lack of understanding. The meta is only one part of balance. You can’t claim the tanks are inbalances if only one meta comp is the issue that is that meta comp being unbalanced if it’s a large gap or favoured if small.
Also a favour to a tank in a meta group is fine not one person here claimed tanks where equal it was said they are balanced massive diff between equal and balanced.
The game is not balanced around a single meta comp in fact blizzard has outright made that statment.
If they tryed to balanced around one meta comp and said screw everything else we would not have multi classes. You have to judge balanced not only in there ideal comps but in all comps. What tanks are able to handle the season overall that is what this thread is about. This thread is not about the meta comp. but tank balance among the tanks. Esp as the meta shifts all the time. One day it’s a kite meta the next it shifts to something else based on many factors. Eg sham healers was the meta healer at start of shadowlands for meta to shift to pally mid way.
yeah, this is why I repeat the same sentance with ‘balance’ instead of ‘equal’ since you appear to be more interest in pointless semantics than adressing actual points.
If a there are 2 classes and there is a 80/20 split in representation, but a 1% difference, is that not balanced?
oh well, show me than 80-20 split with a 1% difference then.
Cause i’Ve listed a bunch of exemple up above and it’s nowhere close to a 1% difference.
Heck, DPS classes are up in arms for such small difference on a single boss every tier…
How is it me focused on useless semantics when you are the one who keeps bringing up the word equal.
The tank classes, for the content the game was scaled for, are balanced with their respective toolkit. Some classes have mobility, other classes have dps, and some have more beef.
DHs used to be 80% of M+20 and up, now they are barely 45%. Obviously mobility isn’t all that if the meta is shifting.
People playing to the meta is not the tanks not being balanced that is people playing to the meta. Massive difference.
People will play to the meta for any small advantage you will never get stuff perfectly equal and why from the start not one person said they where equal and why from the start we have a tier list.
From the start it was said the tanks are quite ClOSE to each other that is not equal. As such since there is a better one people will play to the meta and it will have a higher representation that was never agrues agenist.
A higher representation esp in the level beyond 15 where everyone know and blizzard has outright stated to not balance for and as such everyone is playing for any small advantage will be skewed. This is not a lack of balance that is people playing to maximize advantages. It dosent matter how close two specs are so long as even a small diff is thought to be there people will make use of it.
Trying to use high keys representation furthermore mdi espnearly season is not a good way to judge if tanks are balanced as those players look for every possible advantage no matter how small.
Using that to try to claim if tanks are balanced or not is highly bias and honestly makes you look foolish. All representation at the high end shows is what tank fits the meta comp best and that is only one small subset of balance.
It is not a indication on if the tanks are balanced overall it is only a indication of what people use.
If you want to show inbalance would have to have first hand experiences on if the content is more difficult when using diff tanks in comps playing to that tanks str.
I highly doubt you have this experience and are likly going to misquote anyone you seen or talked to that dose.
The writers at icyviens and the people I mentioned in my org statment do.
I provided data on the gap closing between DH and other tanks for 20+ keys from 80% to now 45%. You made the assumption it was due to “alts”. So yes, where is your source on that.
again, if the DPS situation was as ‘’’ close’‘’ to tank, they’d be raising pitchfork in irvine.
nobody pretend fire mage are balanced with surv hunter.
nobody even pretend the DPS situation is remotely close to balanced.
nobody pretend that some DPS being better at X while some are better at Y result in anything remotely close to balance ; your uncapped AoE potential in M+ matter a hundred time more than your spread two-target potential.
blizzard has outright stated to not balance
heeeey, just one inch to outright admitting it’s not balanced.
Trying to use high keys representation furthermore mdi espnearly season is not a good way to judge if tanks are balanced as those players look for every possible advantage no matter how small.
I listed everything linked to mythic+ because someone accused me of not using all possible meta. now you don’T want me to list them all?
but yeah, using your ability to do 15s, 9 months later after 3 nerf… is much better.
Aight. I didn’t expect to break the Simpdom and statu quo in this echo chamber… it’S far easier to pretend tank are equals cause we don’T care about them than engage is long and arduous balance discussion.
looking forward to a totally balanced M+ season next patch where Prot paladin stand side by side with guardian and VDH!
Yes and is a prime example how bad representation is at judging balance it changes all the time based on if people are pushing hard or playing more casual and willing to play alts or otherwise that are slightly weaker but still perfectly balanced but slightly weaker. Esp as those levels balancing is not done around so the gaps between classes become more noticeable which it fine and mentioned to be perfectly acceptable as per blizzard. As at that level the meta becomes rather hard set due to the nature of unlimited scaling keys at some point there no leeway anymore at all.
When people are pushing still obv the max advantages skewing representation. This makes rep a rather bad indication of balance at the high end.
You have shown nothing that it is not close for 9.1 you have used many examples from old seasons which mean exactly nothing.
As mentioned the people that have the first hand experience in the content have made the statment they are close. You can’t agrue this with your feel logic. You need first hand experience to judge it. And you lack the abilty to even quote people correctly showing you lack the abilty to understand classes in depth to get that first hand experience.
It’s really that simple you have made it vary clear over the thread by discrediting yourself that you lack the abilty to get that first hand experience pointing at representation on old seasons mean exactly nothing when talking about a new season. Your feels mean even less.
As a random person on a fourm that has made it clear he lacks basic understanding of how to even quote a discusion makes it vary clear he won’t have the abilty to to judge the meta and test it in the ptr to get that first hand experience.
Blizzard saying they don’t balance beyond 15 is not anywhere close to saying the tanks are not balanced at the 15 level that this discusion is about in fact it’s the exact opposite but do keep showing again and again you can’t quote people properly.
If s1 is where we’re drawing statistics from, the dk is the last tank to be represented and it’s 24+ in time on all keys. So since the top keys on live servers were 27s and only in 3 dungeons, 26 in 3 and 25 in 2, the balance was pretty good.
Dks were the worst, but the top paladin in s1 was #12 in the world for overall tanks with all 25s in time. They were widely criticized as squishy and were 2 key levels behind in 3 dungeons, 1 key level behind in 3 dungeons and on par in 2.
Tank balance is very tight, it’ll never be perfect, but the drop off being 27-24 and only in a few dungeons, it’s pretty silly to say the tanks aren’t balanced well.
SL started off with significantly overturned trash in dungeons which drove the kiting meta. DH mobility and snap threat drove the meta to DH in which the strategy was to grab threat during meta/feldev and then call for trees and then kite.
There has been more tank tuning so far in SL then we normally see in entire expansions. Multiple passes have been done balancing dungeons, nerfing dungeons, and buffing underperforming tanks. Were about to see another 10% nerf to auto attacks in dungeons.
We’re also seeing boomkins getting nerfed, cardboard assassins getting nerfed, and a likely shift in the dps meta. Without trees and cardboard assassin, DH is much less valuable. Tanks that can stand there and facetank (Guardian druid/prot warrior/mayyyyyne BRM) will be the standouts since they don’t need to kite, rely on trees/cardboard, and deal with physical damage really well. DK/Pally will see their overall performance increase since their historical issue has been tankiness - but the same nerfs to dungeons that help them also help the other tanks which puts them in an even better position.
As other’s have mentioned, and as many top M+ tanks have discussed recently, unless you’re doing +23 and up keys, any tank is fine.
Considering Blizzard balances around the raid and +15’s, thats really good tank balance - all things considered.
Not everyone can play 8 hours a day, gear all toons, and swap between them or min/max like streamers do. Lot’s of players roll their class and stick to it until the next patch. They see how the classes shake out, and swap then. Doing so mid season is a huge time investment and often impactful to their raid comp.
Things will change and tanks are very close in balancing. Yes, there are some that are performing better then others, there always will be. But to come in here and tell everyone they’re wrong about tank balancing because tanks aren’t perfectly equal in performance recently while being absolutely out of touch yourself is silly.
Go do some homework, apply some critical thinking, open your mind a little but, and maybe you’ll start to put together the real picture.
Not sure you guys should bother replying to this baumbart guy anymore. He clearly can’t understand that balance and representation are not the same thing.
My original point being, that he quoted, there’s not a big reason to worry about what class you’re rolling for m+ until you hit the highest tier of play where those 1% difference make or break runs.
For 15s any spec is more than fine, getting declined by groups at that point is either the players fault or the fault of the players he’s trying to group with for being ignorant and not looking at a players record with the many tools we have available (logs, rio, new blizz scoring system).