Really? Because by far MOST players never raided through WotLK. That’s why they made LFR.
And a lot of players never did level appropriate dungeons or BGs. I knew a lot of people who didn’t ever do any instanced content ever through MoP. They quested. They did grinds for rep and rare stuff. They loved professions and gathering.
You see WoW through a lens of what YOU like to do and think that your play-style is the focus. It didn’t used to be. It shouldn’t be now. The name of the game is “World of Warcraft” and the world was the initial draw for millions of players.
There should always be raids and dungeons and PvP in WoW, but not at the expense of other game-play. Every subscriber pays the same amount.
I fell in love with WoW for the world, not for the instances. I wanna have fun and rewarding content to continuously do in the world. If the only content that feels rewarding is instances I’ll just play a different game with my time.
What’s missing then? Outside dungeons, raids and PvP, there are lots of content in there.
World PvE
Brawler’s Guild
Resource Collection for Professions
Sanctum Upgrades
World Bosses
Timewalking
Mount Collection
Mog Collection
Hunter Pet Collection
Adventure on Past Contents
The soloist have plenty of things to do. For some reason, they got burned out? How about stepping to dungeons? Nope? Why cant you queue on Normal and Heroic? Really no? Blizz has put a lot of time to design those dungeons and you dont want to play it? For me, you are on a wrong game.
None of that crap matters when we exist in a world we don’t care about.
Shadowlands lacks soul. BFA gave you the impression that there was a vast world to explore the after life makes you feel like you’re stuck in a cage with a ball wrapped around your ankle.
You dont care with the game. You dont want to be part of it. It’s your choice. There are games for you and you dont like it.
If the game is competitive and you dont want to participate on its competitive environment, then the game must be not for you. You are on a wrong game.
If you are here to push and eliminate competitive content. To me, it means you want the difficulty to become a joke. Sorry nope. Blizz gave you enough non-competitive content, and if youre not happy, then I dont know. GIving you high ilevel progression path is not the answer.
If you’re not playing the sport you shouldn’t be here. This isn’t a game all about the sport and it should never have become the focal point cause the game just isn’t that good for it.
You’re comparing the end of one expansion to the beginning of another. Apples and oranges. I played BFA from the very beginning to end. BFA was NOT offering endgame solo loot in 8.0 and it wasn’t until 8.3, the last patch, that you could solo your way to high end gear. You might have gotten more gear during BFA, but it was mostly garbage that you ended up selling to a vendor.
The fact that it was at the end of the expansion really has very little bearing on the fact that the gear was basically on par with mythic raid gear for that patch.
People keep saying it would ruin dungeons and raids but there’s never been any evidence to back that up.
People used to insist that if dungeons ever awarded gear comparable to raids it would be the end of raiding because nobody would ever raid again. Here we are 3 expansions into the M+ system and raids haven’t died.
Hell I remember at the end of Vanilla when people complained that raiding was pointless because you could get easy epics from PvP and again, raiding didn’t die out.
That’s my point in all this. If Torghast mimiced Horrific Visions and let players get up to ilvl 226 gear provided they could clear the upper levels and let’s say they tied that into the vault system then we would not see the death of raids, dungeons, and PvP.
I was initially a fan of scaling, because it allowed me to finish a zone without completely outleveling it 1/3 of the way through.
It turns out that I just wasn’t a fan of how quick leveling became.
But in the same turn, I liked that leveling sped up, because we reached a point where, like, it took 15 levels of absolutely nothing before we saw any character progression. So I wanted to close that 15 level gap for the next piece of candy (talent or skill).
Again, a whole series of band aids are finally unraveling to show how broken things are. They ruined leveling with small fixes upon fixes, when they could’ve easily just taken, like, the Legion talents and baked them into the leveling process or something.
Then they ruined world content by taking away things like AP and gear upgrading.
All great changes for lobby players and raid-loggers, absolutely terrible for anyone looking for something meaningful to do outside of that stuff.
We went from “these raiders feel forced to do WQs for AP” to “nothing matters except raid.” Which is better for the game as a whole?
I guess we’ll find out with the next expansion sales, huh?
But, yeah, I hate scaling and the devs were wrong. Getting a single talent every level and training skills every 2 in classic is far more meaningful than they believed.
I only like Chromie time because it fixes their chaotic storytelling that came with scaling. (Band aids upon band aids)
You’re comaring to Mythic gear. I completed the solo 5mask achievement starting with world quest gear. I never got into a mythic or raid group. Working my way through the masks, I was able upgrade the upgradable slots from 450, 460, 470 and so on. Sure they were inferior to mythics but it made Horrific visions rewarding for me.
I’m in the same boat this expansion not having any guild options for mythic/raid content. So Torghast is my content. However I’ve found that 2.5 hr sessions just don’t work for me for twisted corridors. I’d love some save points. However that’s beside the point.
Generally I hate catchup mechanics. I don’t see anything wrong with running previous raids to gear up like it used to be. But that’s long gone, and Blizz will give raiders/M+ means for easy catch up gear each content patch. So why not make Torghast part of that like Horrific visions?
Yeah, I was excited when they talked about a return of Valor…
…
…
Until they dropped the ball and made it ONLY for upgrading Mythic and PvP stuff.
I mean, really Blizz? We have a ridiculous anima shortage and you still want us to dump thousands of anima into the only casual-friendly gear available when we also want other things like cosmetics, mounts, and covenant upgrades, you know, the content that casuals actually care about.
At this point, I think I’m just barely plodding along, doing bare minimum because everything else is just too grindy for me to care. I like the idea of building up the covenants, etc, but the grind is just too much for such little reward.
I’m more waiting for Classic Wrath to come around, and I’m hoping that Blizz pays close attention to player engagement, and maybe, just maybe, the current design team will see what made Wrath so popular back in the day.
Afterall, it was THE High Point of WoW sub numbers. People loved it, people played it for hours and hours and hours. There’s a reason for that, and I think this new dev team that we have nowadays could stand to learn a few things about what Ghostcrawler and his ilk did back then.
That doesn’t explain, though, why everybody has to be toxic with previous tier raids.
“LFM (insert raid here)! Must have achieves and (next raid’s item level here)!”
And when the entire LFG channel is filled with nothing but that, it just makes one think that getting any of that content done during the current expansion is going to be outright impossible.
And making your own group? heh. That’s what everybody says to do… but yet, most of these people shouting this are the people not joining your raid and so you sit there with a 2-3 person group waiting hours to fill a group.
It makes all the difference in the world. WOW has always had an endgame focus on group activity. From Vanilla all the way up to the current expansion, whether you’re talking PVP or PVE. It’s not a solo based game, never has been never will be.
And M+ gear is not on the same level as mythic raid gear. Again, an apples and oranges comparison. M+ goes up to 220 and Mythic Raids go up to 230. So nothing was changed as you like to proclaim. Top dungeons still drop less than top raids.
This perspective is wild to me, because Castle Nathria, while it’s good as a raid, is probably the least relevant raid in regards to gearing we’ve had in modern history.
If the devs are designing a game around raidlogging, they’re not doing a very good job of it.
Okay but group content still happened all the time even when there was a solo option.
How does that matter if it was at the beginning or the end of the expansion? People like insisting that it matters. I’ve yet to see anybody explain why it matters.
M+ goes up to 226 from the great vault. It’s specifically why I gave that number, and mentioning the great vault means it would award it at literally the same pace that M+ does.
Also, M+ used to be on par with raids. People complained about Shadowlands changing that, saying it was going to ruin M+ dungeons if it didn’t give mythic raid level gear.
Which funnily enough, it didn’t seem to do that.
It’s almost like people use the fearmongering of “It will ruin the game!” as an excuse when they have no real arguments against something.
As a casual raider. Someone who pushes AOTC and then plays the remainder of the game, what else is there?
I know PVP overshadowed raid gearing this patch. But that was really a thing for min/maxers.
I suppose I should’ve expanded raid in my statement to include M+ and rated PVP. The end game push content.
People that only played for those systems were the ones making noise about things like AP, or how much effort leveling took.
So the designers removed the hurdles that got in their way of getting into end game content and focusing on it. In doing so, they removed a lot of meaningful content from people (like myself) who don’t play the game exclusively to do that group progression content.
That was my concern with Torghast as I expect it to drop gear like Horrific Visions. It really helped my PuG’ing progression towards M+15 and AoTC.
Maybe, Blizz would give gear reward on later patches. We are just at the start of Expansion. Horrific Vision is on later part of Expansion. BFA 8.0 has nothing back then.