8.3 DH Class changes i'd like to see. (GLADIATOR DH)

Classes Demon Hunter
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Now, most of this is from a PVP perspective, however it will effect PVE as well, making most specs more fun to play and rewarding.

In the first bit i’ll be going over the Talent system, and why it needs to be changed.

#1: Talents need to be rewarded for difficulty.
Having a passive talent be straight up better in most situations over an on-use, which takes mechanical skill to press shouldn’t be happening. But in Legion/BFA That seems to be the case.

Why is it that First blood for DH, makes your Blade Dance cost less, do AOE damage, and better single target way out perform Dark Slash, which you have to pool fury before using, time it well, and it’s far easier to outplay.

This first blood talent also makes DH spam blade dance, instead of use it in a skillfull way, timed to dodge large melee abilities, instead you’re just spamming it 24/7 to increase your aoe, and single target.

Darkslash, even though it takes far more process and difficulty to use, simply dosent do as much single target, OR aoe, AND it’s harder to use. So why does it exist?

In my opinion, Darkslash should be buffed, and Firstblood nerfed. It has far too much passive value, comparitively.

Each skill should be optional yes, but passives shouldn’t be so much better than on-use abilities.
This goes for all talent trees, but in this case i’m focusing on DH.

Likewise, Demonic (Last teir DH talent) shouldn’t be so much better than Momentum.

This is far more unique, but shows that some passives can take skill.
Demonic, gives you a free transformation, buffing all your abilities for 8 seconds, and gives you more leech while in demo form.

Momentum, everytime you dash, you get a 5 second buff for 15% more damage, timing that window with an eyebeam, Chaos strike, or burst opportunity is far more complicated to use, and get value out of.

So why is Demonic significantly better?

So much value shouldn’t be put into passives.
Thats all.
I’d like to see Darkslash buffed, and First blood nerfed significant, to create a more skillfull DH playstyle, thats also far more fun to do in both pvp and pve. I’d like the optional abilities so I have something to press, to be better than all the passives, and the passives to be more geared towards new players of the class, while the more experienced players can get more value, though it’s harder out of on-use abilities, which complicate the rotation.

A good way to buff Darkslash, would be to make its ranged say 10 yards, and allow your chaos strikes to be ranged on the darkslash target during that period, maybe 5-10 yards.

Or, buff its damage, its duration, or make it AOE as well, so your Chaos strikes say do 30% of their damage to all targets within 5 yards of the darkslash target. This would put it on par with First blood, and make it actually fun to use.

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This is literally what I said in the arena forums but got shouted down.

Buff Dark Slash, Momentum. Nerf Demonic, and outright remove at least one of the Blade Dance buffers. There’s no reason it should be the best move in any scenario thoughtlessly.

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First Blood can’t be nerfed, it needs to be made baseline. Nerfing it would completely frick us over in PvE. A PvE rotation without First Blood is totally bland, boring and horrible to play, not only numbers-wise, but also game play-wise. It’s to the point that I feel bad even considering picking anything else.

Now, about Dark Slash… In my opinion, this should NEVER be a competitive option in PvE because it’s super boring. If I wanted that playstyle I would just play an Arms Warrior instead. I’m OK with it somehow being viable in PvP, but I just can’t see how they can make that possible.

Now about Nemesis/Momentum/Demonic… That’s a tough one.

  • Nemesis is boring and doesn’t even look like a talent, I believe everyone would agree on that.

  • Momentum is pretty interesting, and I really liked the play style back in Legion, although it did have its problems. Namely using your movement abilities for DPS gain, and also HAVING to move when you shouldn’t, which once again are a problem in PvE and these are the biggest (and understandably so) complaints about Momentum.

  • Now, I also like Demonic a lot and honestly don’t see how other talents can even compete with it. It’s really tough to even consider picking anything else, because Demonic is just too good (and it’s far from OP). Demonic at this point should be made baseline too, but I know this one is a long stretch and would probably never happen. It’s just that I can’t imagine any other talent being able to compete with it and I sure as hell don’t want to see it removed.

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It’s not about being “Boring” Or “Unfun” It’s about being rewarded for harder gameplay and putting more thought process into it.

Let’s say the DOT from Dance was made baseline, so then you have an ability that take situational skill to use. YOu can use it defensively, or when theres a certain number of mobs to apply the dot AOE. Make the dot last longer, ect.
I
nstead of just picking a talent thats literally braindead, you just press it every 6 seconds with zero thoughtprocess. It’s not more fun to have a braindead talent you can literally AFK And just watch youtube videos while spamming the same buttons. THATSSS boring.
Of course this is all subjective.
But I think alot of players feel the sameway. Firstblood is straight up BORING if going by your logic, and having something to track, and get better use out of if you’re good is far more interesting.

Nemisis is boring, I agree, and it should be something geard towards new players.

That’s the thing about PVE, and PVP, by using momentum in such a way, moving, timing things correctly, moving to non-dangerous spots EXPONENTIALLY increases DH Skill required to use the class to get the maximim benefit. You’re a flipping flying dashing DH, why are you content with standing still being boring?

Demonic was the worst talent in Legion, keep in mind. It was used situationally.
And it should of stayed like that. Maybe buffed a bit, but it shouldn’t be outright massively better. Infact, it should be removed and nerfed slightly, maybe 6 sec duration, but made baseline. And add a more flavorfull talent in its place.

None of these things are about it being the best talent or not, it’s about diversifying the class and making it more interesting to play. A good DH would be seperated from a Bad one. As it is right now, any decent player can just hop on and start spamming.

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The thing is, about PvE at least, First Blood is not boring, playing without it is. If you remove First Blood, you press one button less when on single target. First Blood needs to be made baseline and something else needs to take its place. Dark Slash should go and something else needs to replace it too. Same for Fel Mastery, Cycle of Hatred and many others (not just for DH).

Now, about your complaint in PvP. I get it, I think everyone does. Almost every class just mash buttons and do their PvE rotation in PvP and this is not fine. This is a problem with the game design for this and the past expansion. The pruning made this happen and the only way it can be fixed is to revert it. There’s little room for counter play nowadays because there is not much to do besides hugging pillars.

Demonic was only situational and not the best talent because Chaos Blade was a thing. There is a reason why Chaos Blade was removed (it was toxic af and overall just a “press button, gain damage talent”). After being repeatedly nerfed, Demonic took over in the last patch.

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First Blood and Demonic should both become baseline, and Eye Beam should be castable while moving.

THANK YOU. I said the same thing here months ago and no one wanted to hear it.

For the record, though, I strongly dislike Momentum conceptually. I abhor the idea of having to use your mobility for a damage increase, and thus not having mobility when you suddenly need it. Havoc definitely needs more complexity, but I would hope Momentum got redesigned.

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Sounds like OP needs to play a Rogue…for more choices.

Leave my Havoc alone, kthx.

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Thats where the skill comes in. As in Legion, where Momentum was the biggest best build for high ranked pvp. A good demon hunter could both time their mobility when they need it, AND get damage out of it at the sametime.

Skill-gap. A lesser skilled player can’t ever push to find out how to get value from both scenarios. And will just try to get one of the sides removed to fit their playstyle.

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I totally agree with you, the class at its current iteration is so bad, dark slash, a single target ability doing less damage than an aoe ability is such poor class design. Also DH not having a base line snare/slow still makes no sense to me, considering how mobile WW monks are. I hope 9.0 changes somehow.

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I hate dark slash with a passion. It’s just another unorigional debuff that needs to be applied like sanguinary vein for rogues or colossus smash for warriors.

I miss the days when the demonic built added a unique play style where we were encouraged to pool soul fragments.

Instead of dark slash, I wish spirit bomb could be available to havoc demon hunters. It would have so much potential to keep havoc mechanics fresh.

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Have to agree with a poster above, if you don’t like the class because it is too simple for you, grab a rogue and go to town. I personally love the play style of DH and would be turned way off by some of the changes you are suggesting. I will agree there are some other fundamental issues that need reworked.

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Yeah buffing dark slash. Woa, that’s some crazy changes I just can’t get behind either.

Eye roll
All he for was options. He’s a glad dh many times over. But yes please, tell us how having to choose between two abilities would just be WAY to much.

Like a passive or an on use ability? Two choices ? How could Blizzard ever do this honestly ? Allow two separate choices ?

Too much depth !!!

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I agree, this all sounds very reasonable.

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If you reward the more active play style with more dmg. There is no choice. The whole idea of talent rows is they should be relatively equal … so you can customize your play.

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I know you guys are talking about the PvP side of the game but you can’t make sweeping changes and not consider the impact upon the PvE side (which is far more popular among the general player base).

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@OP: Some thoughts:

  1. You’re basing your arguments mostly off pvp. Trying to redesign a spec to please the pvp crowd has historically not worked well. Just ask arms warriors, sub rogues, frost mages, and survival hunters. Classes work better when designed for pve.
  2. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that everyone pvps, and therefore these changes HAVE to be made. The fact is that over the entire course of this game, only a minority have been pvpers, and an even smaller minority are serious pvpers. This game has always been designed around pve, going all the way back to vanilla, and should continue to do so.
  3. More complicated ≠ more fun for a lot of people, especially on boss fights that are already complicated. Furthermore, melee already has enough disadvantages in pve that missing a cooldown, even a 20 second cool down like dark slash, will severely hamper a class that doesn’t have any dots. That’s a big reason why outlaw (ahem, combat) rogues no longer have good single target dps - they lost their poisons and garrote, i.e. they lost their dots and suffer massively when they are forced off target.
  4. Momentum is terrible in pve for a reason. The movement style of momentum/fel rush/vengeful retreat might be good in pve, but it is HORRIBLE to try to work around a boss, especially a boss that has a lot of anti-melee mechanics (which, let’s be honest, is about 90% of the boss fights). Refer to points #1 and #2.
  5. Demonic and Blind Fury are acutally fun for some people, especially in raids and dungeons. Not everyone agrees with you on that point.
  6. Could the spec use another button or two to press in both pve and pvp? Sure, but it shouldn’t be at the expense of the synergy of the current spec. Good synergy is in short supply in melee dps spec these days. Please don’t mess with the one that is actually currently strong.
  7. The talents YOU want to make strong a lot of people find to be boring and dull.
  8. This:

Outlaw in its current state is a grand example. Lots of more buttons to push, plus having to learn how to work around all of the different RtB buffs.

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Daemon hunter is overpowered in a sense that you cannot even say it is overpowered …

The burst damage after stun is silly to say the least, unbelievable to me anyway what they are able to do.

There has to be little effort it seems to play one for max damage…

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i dont like dark slash either, would rather see it removed than buffed

you wont find much support with this attitude, i care about having fun when i play more than anything else

most people seem to think dark slash is just boring and dont want changes that make it the go to choice

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Guys. Far too many of you are seriously missing the point.

The OP’s saying that having talents that are passives or less complex provide better throughput than talents that require more complexity to use is generally poor design.

This isn’t even something that’s mutually exclusive to DH.

Why is this difficult to understand?

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You are ignoring his suggested changes, which many of us disagree with. I’m all for more complex gameplay yielding better rewards, but complexity for the sake of being complex is not a good idea.

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