i think most of us did understand. the problem is that dark slash and momentum are unpopular talents, especially for pve
buffing them would not make people like them
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There’s nothing wrong with this. Including Blade Dance in ST is great!
Demonic is passive, and the most engaging talent in the row!
Momentum is as passive as Demonic, but I’d argue that some players would generally prefer this talent to die.
they need to change DK so the dribble that drips from my mouth when playing DH has enough impact to click the one button i need to press to dps as a dh, then all i have to do is use W and my mouse.
The fact that you dont see a problem with that sort of playstyle is the problem.
Have you ever actually played momentum, because I can assure you there is a lot more you have to do than just hit eyebeam
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I see your problem with that playstyle, but I, and others, enjoy this design. Do not be so completely ignorant and selfish, that your own preferences are to seen be the design goals for everyone. In addition, would you just be happy pressing the one ability as a spender in a ST encounter, like a good little hampster? Because not everyone enjoys that approach, and Blade Dance can act as an ability to break that monotony which could also be seen as a passive talent, leading into an active ability that would not be used otherwise…
Which leads me into:
Yes, I do know how to play momentum, thank you very much. It is technically a passive talent, incorporating existing abilities instead of adding an active ability. Given your snide approach, I assumed you’d know this instead of being (again) completely ignorant on the matter…
Demonic is also designed in this way, allowing some player agency into how/when it is executed in lining up with Death Sweep.
I prefer Demonic over Momo in a PvE environment as there is much less issue with positioning arrangements that may be required for an encounter.
I totally agree.
That definitely seems like a tuning issue. For pure ST situations Dark Slash should appear to be the better pick over First Blood.
So here is the thing. A good DH will still learn what they can dodge with Blade Dance and they will still use it in a skillful way you describe, as a defensive ability when possible. So no, First Blood doesn’t necessarily mean that you are forced to mindlessly mash Blade Dance, it just makes it do more damage thus it becomes part of the primary rotation.
Perhaps in terms of damage. Yes First Blood ST damage should be brought down a bit, but I also think that Dark Slash damage increase to Chaos Strike should be buffed slightly, maybe 50 or 60% extra damage rather than 40%.
I don’t think Momentum should be so much more difficult than Demonic.
See, I think that there is too much emphasis on dual purpose abilities when it comes to DH. You have Blade Dance, which is a bread and butter of dps yet it also doubles as a 100% damage mitigation CD.
Then for Momentum you have your movement speed increases doubling as part of the DPS rotation, which I don’t find to be very fun, nor as skillful as some would paint. There are times when it’s nice to pick and choose what flavor of ability you want using competing resources but never is it fun to be forced to blow a defensive CD just because it helps your offense. Nor is it fun to leverage what should be utility abilities, again just because it helps your offense.
This. At a base level, the concept that more complex talents, or rather, talents that are more difficult to optimize and/or easier to screw up, should also reward output better, sounds really good. There are several issues with that approach, however.
First, not everyone likes a complex playstyle, and Blizzard themselves have highlighted this point at times. While more complex playstyles probably should reward with better output, players shouldn’t feel forced into those playstyles. WoD Demonology is a good example of this, where the spec was complex enough that players felt like they literally couldn’t do well with the spec unless they were grade-A gamer material. Feral has had this issue at times as well, especially during the times that Savage Roar was either baseline or far-and-away the best talent (and before it got its duration buffed).
The second issue is that complexity doesn’t necessarily equal fun. For some players, complexity is its own reward, but for most, the “fun” of a talent has more to do with how fluid it feels in the gameplay and how useful and effective it feels to use. Some types of complexity fit that well (ex. Roll the Bones), while others tend to be more annoying than fun (ex. Momentum), at least for most players.
It’s also worth noting that active vs. passive isn’t a good gauge for “complexity”. Demonic and Momentum are both passive, while Nemesis is active, but few would contest the fact that Momentum is easily the most complex of the 3, and Nemesis the least. Complexity has more to do with how much attention you have to pay to it, how much timing it requires, and how much you have to prepare for it.
In this regard, Dark Slash is definitely more “complex” than First Blood, despite both of them adding an ability to the rotation (and First Blood adding it rather more often than Dark Slash). But again, complex doesn’t necessarily equal fun, engaging, or desirable gameplay. I personally tend to dislike the “DPS window” Colossus Smash type abilities, the same as I tend to dislike constant-drain ability (Void Form and Breath of Sindragosa). BoS is actually a particularly good example of this issue, because I really enjoy Frost DK…but I hate BoS, and BoS has been consistently tuned to be the only viable option for roughly two expansions now. In the same way, if DH were once again tuned where Momentum were the only option (as it was in Emerald Nightmare), I’d drop the class without hesitation, because that’s not a mechanic I enjoy dealing with.
Different players are different. Some prefer those type of mechanics, others do not. The goal, in my mind, is to have those playstyles available somewhere within the game, and also ideally for talent builds to be close enough that players that prefer a particular build can use it without feeling like they are holding their group back. The current balance between the Demon Blades/Fel Blade and Blind Fury/Immo Aura builds is a good example of this. The two builds are close enough in strength that players can pick whichever they prefer without feeling like they are a problem, with the possible exception of the upper echelons of the progression raiding sphere.
If Dark Slash were tuned in this manner, I’d have little problem with it. I still wouldn’t spec it, no question about that, but I don’t have a problem with it as long as I’m not feeling forced into it. I can’t play Frost, because Frost without BoS is frankly terrible. I don’t want the same thing to happen to Havoc with regards to Dark Slash or Momentum.
2 Likes
Honestly, Momentum used to be fun for awhile, but when you get to Mythic Raiding and High M+, then it starts being a problem. Using your movement abilities for damage is not good. This is also why Fel Mastery never sees play anymore. These talents should be shelved for good and have something else replace them because they are a nightmare to balance around and frankly, are way more trouble than they are worth.
And if you want to play with Dark Slash so much, man, I think that Demon Hunter is not the class for you. I’d suggest maybe playing a Warrior.
Good to see you back 
And yeah, nailed it!
1 Like
Not my intent. My issue was mainly with people saying “lol go play rogue” as if asking for more depth within your favorite spec is somehow a bad thing.
Agreed, but as others have beaten me to pointing out, a buff doesn’t necessarily have to mean a direct increase to the ability’s throughput. A buff can mean an overhaul of the ability itself. I can think of several ways to make dark slash more appealing than a recycled colossus smash.
Imagine introducing a brand new ability as a talent only to find it’s vastly unpopular and under-performs continuously and then doing absolutely nothing to change or make the ability better. I can’t speak for Blizzard, but if I were at the helm, changing Dark Slash is one of the first things I’d do.
But then you can agree - that people who want more than just demonic as a viable option ought to have their voices heard, no? Not to cherrypick - I agree with the vast majority of what you’re saying. But the argument goes both ways here.
Speaking for myself, I really enjoyed momentum in pvp and pve. My favorite pvp build was to use momentum in conjunction with bloodlet (sometimes I feel like I’m the only person who misses bloodlet 
). I don’t see this as a case of wanting complexity for it’s own sake, but rather complexity for the sake of depth and agency.
Something I believe contributes to the problem here is that havoc just came off of an expansion that, through it’s lifespan, let us experience three very distinct builds: the momentum/bloodlet build of early Legion, the first blood 2-minute man build between chaos blades, nemesis, and DoG meta, and the Antorus demonic build which utilized CDR from soul fragments to stay in demon form forever. BfA has seen havoc essentially dominated by demonic and azerite traits have done little to encourage alternative builds within the established talents - in stark contrast to what legion legendaries and set bonuses did.
Personally I wish Blizzard would put a little more focus into tuning talents that are under-performing. This is not the same thing as asking for momentum to be better than demonic or for dark slash to be better than first blood. Just for ways for them to be competitive.
This is not a problem with Havoc, this is a problem with the entire game. Pretty much every class only have one viable build, sometimes two, but with not that much of a difference between them. Most classes have ~10 dead talents, and this is the main problem.
3 Likes
The dead talent situation seems like a byproduct of too much spec over class emphasis.
Personally I’d be a fan of us going back to the MoP style talent builds: one series of talents between all specs. This would, in theory, see more talents getting used as different specs would have different reasons for picking one talent in a row vs the other.
A bit more complicated for DH with only two specs to it, but it could be done.
To be honest, it’s mostly a problem with Blizzard devoting basically zilch for effort towards balancing. BfA has consistently had class, spec, and talent balance that at best was still worse than the worst periods in Legion.
Frost DK is a brilliant example. BoS is roughly 8% total DPS ahead of the next best option, and the third, Obliteration, is well behind that. Deathbolt has been leading the Affliction circle for 3 tiers now, and Blizzard just now noticed that (and it’s up in the air whether the Deathbolt nerf and the Nightfall and Drain Soul buffs are going to be sufficient to make it optional). Roughly half of MM’s talents are just flat out useless, and Piercing Shot was actually a DPS loss over taking no talent at all on that tier for literally the first two entire raid tiers.
The balancing velocity in BfA is a large part of what has me so convinced that Blizzard has WoW, or at least BfA, running on an absolute skeleton crew. They’ve clearly pulled the majority of devs off to work on Classic, Shadowlands, and/or some other title, because if they were still working on WoW, the majority of them would be just sitting there doing nothing most days in order to maintain this slow of dev pacing.
That was actually my general argument, if you read my last couple paragraphs. I’d love to see the talent builds more balanced. I just don’t want to end up feeling forced into Momentum or similar again, because that absolutely poisons the class for me.
1 Like