What an absolute mess this is becoming.
2 Likes
I feel like Iāve been summoned. On the old board, I was keeping a running tally of the number of times the Horde PC has been subjected to shame and/or guilt since the pre-patch. This is only counting things the Horde PC sees. Thereās a ton more in Alliance-side text (cough āanathema to the noble soulā cough)
- Before the Storm: Basically all of it.
- Dying Sad Elves during the War of Thorns: āI only wanted to defend my homeā and āWhy are the birds so silent?ā
- Anduin at the BfL: āItās killing her own troops,ā he says in horror and pity, even in the middle of our defense of our territory. (I donāt count Saurfang or Baineās lines in this scene because theyāre more internal disagreements on how a war should be conducted than actual condemnations aimed at the PC.)
- Saurfang in Stormwind stockades telling us that Sylvanasās Horde (which we have no choice but to be a part of) lacks honor.
- On the PTR, everyone present expressing horror at the raising of Derek Proudmoore, to the point that our new ally Valtrois compares us to the Legion.
- The āGod of Warā reference dialogue between the Traveling Warrior and Traveling Son, in which the sweet little orc boy is sad about the elves losing their tree.
- During the Stormwind Extraction, Jaina Proudmoore appears, saying we have always been cruel and heartless and ending with a righteous declaration: āYou will not harm another soul in this city!ā
- Similarly, Delaryn Silvermoon gets the plucky ādoomed heroā moment standing up to Sylvanas in the Warbringers video, proudly declaring that she pities Sylvanas and that their hope will live on.
A more debatable possibility thatās still worth mentioning is the fact that when the Horde PC is in Kul Tiras, the citizens accuse you of murdering Daelin Proudmoore. The Horde perspectiveāthat he was a genocidal maniac who deserved to dieāis never given to the Horde PC.
The original post is here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769637948?page=2#post-34
UPDATE: Iāve made a new thread for the list and added some further items to it.
19 Likes
Pellex, he just wants to argue and will never be convinced. I find your post commendable, but sadly doubt it will have much value. I would prepare for a long, line-by-line dissection of every sentence of your post that is much too tiresome to respond to.
7 Likes
Cool list. I appreciate the effort.
But wouldnāt the shaming really depend on the player?
Like some players may view crying elves or shocked Andiun as something positive about how edgy or ruthless their faction and its leader is.
Maybe if it was a big more constant or prevalent I would understand.
But you still have characters talking about honor, glory and victory and all that nonsenseā¦ so its a bit of a mix message isnāt it?
That didnāt age well did it?
To be fair, my intention was to make one comment and leave it at that. Other people questioned the comment which created the chain.
Your primary argument seems to be the idea that the Horde hasnāt suffered enough because of a lack of clear defeats. I can understand that sentiment, but I feel it is dismissive of what the Horde players mean when they talk about their own humiliation.
This entire expansion is a humiliation of the Horde. It completely backtracks on any character development weāve already gotten in Mists making us look dumb and needlessly violent. In fact you could make the strong case that we deserve to be wiped out at this point as we clearly canāt be trusted to make rational decisions anymore.
The book that starts off the war begins by explaining how incredibly weak we are compared to the Alliance, then it takes the full might of the Horde to beat the night elven city guard while their army is away. Then when we finally reach our objective Sylvanas makes a last second choice to destroy the tree, forcing us to be culpable in an act that many of us feel ashamed of having a hand in. Then the narrative tells us that yes, what we did was bad and we deserve anything that comes next.
Then Lordaeron happens and weāre treated to Sylvanas plaguing her own troops to the shock of Anduin. Weāre completely overrun militarily and need to resort to Deus ex Blight instead of relying on our martial skill and power. And in the end we can at best sacrifice our city to stop the Alliance from conquering it. I genuinely canāt understand why the Devs seem to count this as a Horde win. We lost on the field and we lost the Deus ex Machina fight to Jaina, and our last resort was self destruction.
From the perspective of a Horde main we didnāt get any victories in the War of Thorns we can be proud of. We are made and told to feel ashamed for fighting at all while at the same time having Blizzard talk to us as if weāve won a great victory.
On top of that, and this one is a bit more personal as it is my experience, I loved Teldrassil. My fondest moment in all of my Warcraft career was making my first night elf and exploring the beauty and scope of Teldrassil. Blizzard forced me to burn my favorite city in the entire game along with all my nostalgic memories of the wonderment of that first experience.
I have given serious consideration to leveling up my night elf druid for 8.1. I feel ashamed and stupid for playing Horde, and despite all the bad things happening on the Alliance end they are still allowed to feel like the heroes of their own story. I want to fight alongside Tyrande and Malfurion against Nathanos and his Valākyr and against the Horde as it is, and that is the result of the shame and humiliation Blizzard has been loading on my side.
Ultimately humiliation is subjective. I feel like a lot of us are suffering from āthe grass is greenerā syndrome and then arguing over whoās grass is the greenest.
16 Likes
I stand corrected.
My point is that the message being sent is āYOU ARE DOING BAD THINGS.ā You are indeed correct that some players may (and probably do) glory in this. But then, there are Night Elf players who enjoy the poignancy and drama of their suffering. (See here if you donāt believe me: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769059623?page=11#post-201).
12 Likes
As I said on another thread, itās very simple: I just want to feel proud of my faction.
9 Likes
Over-arching storyline is blatantly trying to guilt trip and humiliate the PC for every single step they take, itās extremely absurd.
Itās even in minor details. The sailor quests in Zandalar (the only Alliance presence in initial zone questing) has to take a detour to make you feel bad for the random medic by letting him drop an unsent letter. That quest is mostly neutral but it does have to make sure you feel sorry for that one medic guy and his unsent letter! We now canāt kill a random Alliance soldier without feeling bad and getting humiliated ![:rofl:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/rofl.png?v=6" ":rofl:")
@Lithya this [censored] measuring contest is really silly. Any player has the right to complain if they donāt find the story fun.
16 Likes
I understand but you realize this humiliation is entirely subjective rather than objective? For example some Horde players were having an absolute blast raping and pillaging across 2 different zones when they finally burned down not a city but an entire zone to ash.
Hence all the āFOR THE HORDEā stuff you hear about when this event is brought up.
So really this humiliation is really protesting the greatest military campaign and victory the Horde and its player base have ever experienced in this gameās history along with a very large portfolio of other victories.
As for the comments and references about how the Alliance was out maneuvered just sounds more positives for the Horde but how costly the defense is just to heighten up the tensions. Like what is the alternative? Slaughtering the Night Elves was too easy! they are weak! pathetic! they stand no chance against us!
Would dialogue like that suit you more?
I am just trying to figure out what you really want.
There is a lot I could say about this and some other points I already addressed.
But here let me ask this instead. Do you think the scenario of Lordaeron comes anywhere close to anything what the Alliance player went through during the prepatch.
To be honest if what the Horde has done and is continuing to do do not count as victoriesā¦ like what does? What do you want to see? I am finding it difficult to understand this.
Your sole issue seems to be is not that IF you won but HOW you won which is just a matter of preference.
Sure humiliation is subjective but I would say plenty of people can find some pride in what you considered shamful but very little people can find any prideful moment in ANYTHING that has happened on the Alliance side in this entire expansion.
The one moment I can think of is Jaina recalling her fleet. Thatās it.
That is the only moment in BFA that is not riddled with some last moment kick in the face.
Also if you actually read my post you would see I addressed ALL of this but you mentioned them again which caused me to repeat myself again.
Thereās alot of feelings in this thread.
2 Likes
Then how can you say we donāt understand it or youāve had more of it?
13 Likes
One word.
Scale.
Scale is subjective too.
8 Likes
I detest false equivalencies.
You realize several posters here have said that being told the Night Elves defending their home well despite outnumbered (not that it mattered anyway) is somehow a point of humiliation.
A humiliation that is being to compared to the very same questline experienced from the other side and its finale.
I really canāt take anyone seriously when they try to convince you that they have it just as bad as you do.
Its the equivalent of First World Problems memes.
That is false. Scale is empirical.
Scale of story does not always translate to scale of emotion.
3 Likes
When I say scale I am talking about each individual event and comparing it to its equivalents.
No feelings or subjectivity needed.
Humiliation is a feeling, as you yourself just said a few posts up.
10 Likes
This is inherently subjective, as no one has devised an agreed-upon way to measure the āhumiliationā factor of an event.
12 Likes
Summary by Kazala on the old forum, here: https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767619380?page=5#post-82
Iāll quote it below.
(From Kazala:)
On the Alliance side, you learn that Kromāgarās intended target for the bomb is Windshear Hold, which is an Alliance base. Your character prevents the Horde from using it there.
The sentinels then discover that the bomb is going to be dropped on the Alliance forces fighting at Battlescar Valley, but General Grebo chooses to use it on Thalādarah instead, because heās convinced the Alliance is hiding a superweapon there.
Heās wrong. There is no Alliance superweapon. All thatās there, according to Lord Fallowmere, is the druid school with only a few dozen students.
The Alliance PC then evacuates the students. You see the bomb drop on the empty tree while youāre flying over again with the Master of the school just to make absolutely sure there were no stragglers left behind.
The Horde wastes their WMD on literally nothing.
And in case you forgot or never knew because you didnāt do it, Thalādarah isnāt the end of the Alliance quest chain. The next quest in the chain has you take control of a glaivethrower and mop up the remaining Horde forces in the valley. The bulk of the Horde forces, according to quest text, were already retreating before the bomb dropped.
Later, when you get to Northwatch Base Camp, you recruit the Grimtotem to clean up the Horde forces in Southern Stonetalon, and execute the remaining Horde Generals, including the replacement for Grebo. Meanwhile, the Overlord in charge of the operation is executed offscreen by Garrosh.
Before you head off to the Southern Barrens, Force Commander Valen informs you explicitly that the Alliance now only has to worry about Horde forces trying to enter Stonetalon from outside. The Horde forces in the zone have been routed.
5 Likes