8.1: Jaina Sinks A Horde Fleet

See? This is EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Horde Finale: Use WMD to blow up a city. Great victory for the Horde but… controversial.

Alliance Finale: Get on a Glaive and kill hordes of Horde. Get off glaive, get told this is a major victory and move on to your next questing Hub.

No camps burned, no fortresses razed, no prisoners taken, no formal surrender.
Just off screen banter that you have to imagine.
The rest is just details like. Oh they evacuated! Oh it was meaningless. Oh we got defeated off screen in this quest/book/comic and etc…

Who cares?

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Indeed but as you can see I am constantly comparing events.
rather than looking at each one in isolation.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/992/397/9c9.gif

Sure, but all humiliation is subjective. Humiliation is an emotion, you can’t objectively state something is experienced the same by all people.

What I can objectively say though is that Blizzard’s narrative paints what the Horde is doing as bad and has our own faction heroes telling us we’re bad people for doing it.

A military campaign that Saurfang, a character Blizzard has dedicated massive amounts of time and money into showcasing, tells us not to feel good about.

That’s definitely a different spin on it. What I see is the Horde strategically out maneuvering the Alliance and still failing to overcome the night elves’ token defenses because of how vastly inferior we are to them martially.

What I would have preferred is a story where we didn’t need to trick the night elves away from their forest to win. I would have preferred a longer campaign with a lot of give and take as the night elves push the Horde back in key locations while the Horde press elsewhere, each side having an opportunity to show their martial prowess and intelligence.

For the record, that is also what I would have liked at Lordaeron. The Alliance not being dumb and wandering into a killing field without Blight protection. The Horde actually standing against the Alliance forces under their own merits before ultimately being forced to fall back. No random flying boats.

Apples and oranges. Teldrassil was harsh, but so is your own leader deciding to kill her own troops and then raise them as undead before your very eyes. Then I get to watch her make fun of Saurfang’s dead son.

And this is the character leading my faction.

Everything we’re discussing is up to preference. You don’t like what happened to the night elves, but another night elf player might enjoy being the underdog forced to fight for their land against the evil Horde and is looking forward to 8.1. As I said, I am certainly considering leveling my night elf for just that.

I did read your post. You addressed these points by dismissing them as subjective or trying to assign an objective value you feel it warrants while insisting your own emotions hold a greater value.

All I can do in response to that is explain my own feelings and hope that you come to understand where I am coming from, because it is impossible to assign an objective value on something like “humiliation”.

You keep talking about false equivalency because you feel the Horde posters are arguing in bad faith, but you’re not considering the possibility that their frustration is comparable to yours and that you just can’t feel it because it isn’t happening to you.

We all have things we hate about the current story. Arguing about who’s grass is greener is doomed to become a circular argument that does nothing but foster resentment because neither side can be objectively right.

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There are millions of players. There will always been a number greater than yourself who like something you don’t or hates something you do. Someone’s personal opinion on the story has no merit on the story. It doesn’t make the Horde NPCs cheer at murdering orphans and their mothers. It doesn’t make Saurfang high five Sylvanas. It’s just someone having an opinion.

So, I say again:

Who cares?

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The very first time I commented was to declare that the “humiliations” or defeats or losses or feeling insulted or whatever you want to call it has been predominantly Alliance.

Here is a comparison.
Darkshore event is suppose to be a feel good pre-warfront moment before we kick off the cyclical battles that wont ever conclude in any way.
But what actually happens?
Tyrande and Malfurion take on Nathanos and 2 Val’kyrs with some soldiers on both sides and murder hobos depending on each side.

What are the conclusions?
A new Warfront.
1 dead Val’kyr
2 new Horde generals (NE traitors)
a new NE dark ranger force (NE traitors)

This is supposedly the Alliance victory which we are told by Sira who is glad to see after you had a hand in killing her. Its just… exhausting.

So during pre-patch you complained about being told that the defense is tough and you feel bad about it. You see Sylvanas burn down the tree for inexplicable reasons and Alliance player has to scramble to save people.

Like… I am finding it hard to imagine someone can argue the “Humiliations” here are at all equally distributed. Like do you see the comparisons?
Do you see the problem when trying to say “both sides have it bad?”

Yeah both sides have it bad but what do the Horde player base want more? The mere fact of Alliance players being outraged of having traitors or how Nathanos supposedly can hold his own is met with equal outrage and accusations that somehow changing even a single thing would mean the Warfront can’t happen or maybe the Horde ceases to exist.

Both sides can’t even agree what the problem is with the narrative much less what the solution is.
Everyone just agrees that it sucks but I get the feeling for anything to get better on either side would mean one of the factions would be suffering much more.

Val’kyr have significant story weight for the Forsaken. The Forsaken need those to make more Forsaken and they can’t replace Val’kyr that are lost. You may be undervaluing how important those are just because they aren’t very fleshed out.

I’m not a Forsaken player so I don’t have much of an attachment to them myself. At the same time I don’t consider getting your night elves as much of a win because I hate the idea of night elves just joining their murderess and I think it is terrible writing.

It also means the Forsaken won’t have actual Forsaken characters in their own warfront which is a shame.

It is too subjective to say who got it worse, which is my point. We all have different and wildly varying emotional weights tied to each little point in the story. How do you objectively compare losing a beloved capital to the revelation that your warchief is a maniac who is about to lead your faction down a dark path you never wanted to be a part of?

Horde players just want to feel faction pride. For my part that has been denied me. Even in the parts of the story where I am objectively the hero all I manage to accomplish is failure in the Zandalari chain that is about to run into the Alliance killing my favorite character from this expansion. All part of Blizzard’s idea of parity for an event I hated.

I’d argue most posters on the forum agree on what the problems are overall. The disagreement is on who has it worse, which I feel is an argument doomed to failure from the very start.

A lot of people agree on how to fix the faction war story too. The answer is usually “JUST. DON’T. DO. IT.”

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If you truly believe this is something that can be objectively measured and that you can prove the Alliance has it worse, then I don’t think we have enough common ground to continue this discussion.

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I disagree.
I think we can have a good faction war.

And I think we can have battles, that yes, include Teldrassil being burned or Lordaeron getting gassed.
I have ideas that may please both sides but I probably have to write a lot to show you how it could be done.

I am sure there are some Horde players that are absolutely disappointed while some others are kind of pumped to kick some more Alliance butt in the story.
But I probably will struggle a lot more to find some Alliance players who gleefully await the next tragedy so they can feel like a “hero”.

Do you know why the question who has it worse is important? Because without it you don’t have a frame of reference and when we arrive at the last patch and the finale is everyone going to be satisfied with the outcome?

For example there has been some talk that after the Battle of Dazaralor that the BFA score board is now equalized.
This is the exact issue I just mentioned. Frame of reference.
When you put everything into context this raid is nowhere near close to satisfy any Alliance character. (You already saw the after-math video which is just more salt over the wound)

Thats why a lot of Alliance players are concerned this is yet another Jesus moment where the Alliance player base are supposed to accept yet another turn the other cheek to move the story for yet another expansion.

Just because it pleases you, doesn’t mean it would please anyone else. You can’t please everyone. Also The fact you think Teldrassil is Horde victory is laughable when the event is going to cause yet another Horde civil war. Horde players are not suppose to feel proud about it. No one does besides Sylvanas whose being painted as stupid evil. The only other opinion on it is Varok’s which is disgust, this is the one the Horde player is suppose to feel due to the upcoming civil war.

Also you have no idea what’s going to happen with the new NEs for all you know they can turn and try to betray Sylvanas. We only know one is a mini boss and we have no idea what’s going to be their fate after the warfront.

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I kind of find it arrogant that you would say the entirety of the prepatch was not a Horde victory.
Like during the whole scenario you are pushing back an enemy, going through iconic towns and camps while the Alliance player is being pushed back each step of the way which news flash.
Doesn’t feel great.

And in the finale the Alliance loses a city and a fail rescue attempt.
And we chalk this up as Horde defeat?
The Horde also got 2 Cinematics dedicated entirely about their Honor with Saurfang and we have yet to address how the Alliance is dealing with it…
Well besides Andiun saying he was spared by Saurfang and how incapable we are as a faction to stop Sylvanas and her Horde.

Like.
Seriously? These are all humiliating moments to the Horde? What do you think the Alliance player base is doing? Jumping up and down in joy?

Couldn’t any horde mage do the same thing to an alliance fleet? teleporting 3 bombs onto nearby ships isn’t THAT hard, surely

They COULD, if Blizzard felt at all like letting the Horde have a cool moment for once.

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Yes because as it will soon be shown this will be a Sylvanas victory and not a Horde victory. Just was it was with Theramore wasn’t a Horde victory but a Garrosh victory. Once Sylvanas goes up the chopping block everything is going to be washed away with her, just like it did with Garrosh.

I’m sure you will be very disappointed with this, but alas this is where we’re going because we’ve seen this same story before.

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So what you don’t like, true or not, is a defeat. Or at least you segregate it and blame it all on 1 individual.

I don’t like the Horde torching an Alliance city so therefore its a Horde defeat.
If you want we can use real world historical examples and I guarantee you what the Horde faction accomplish would be hailed as an undisputed victory by whatever army, tribe or country that accomplished the same feats in the real world.

Sure, it can be done. I’ve offered my own ideas on the topic as well. The issue is Blizzard doesn’t want to write the story that way. They genuinely think the Horde wanted another civil war story and that all of 8.1 is a huge Alliance fistpump.

Gleefully awaiting a tragedy? No. Pumped to attack the Horde in 8.1 for vengeance and with full moral superiority? Probably.

You’d also not find many Horde players who are super psyched to lose the next big raid and be at such a disadvantage that Baine immediately suggests surrender.

I disagree. You don’t need to play “I have it worse” with the other side to come up with ideas for how to make it better. You just have to understand where the other side is coming from and work together in a calm and polite environment.

Trust me, a lot of Horde players want the Alliance to be more aggressive too. We want to feel like we’re fighting an enemy that is a legitimate threat to us so we can feel good when we win and feel like we don’t deserve it when we lose.

In an ideal world both sides would have ways to justify their own actions that serve their own perspective while waging war against the other side.

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Like I already said, it’s going to be all tagged on Sylvanas, not the Horde. Calling it a Horde victory is false. Trying to use real world examples for the narrative is also naive when the writers could easily just hand wave any “undisputed victory” away. Yes Sylvanas had a victory in Teldrassil, but it won’t be the Horde. Everything is being set up for Sylvanas to take 100% of the blame.

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the warchief is the horde, stop hiding behind blaming just 1 person.

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Tell Blizz that.

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Oh I am sure the writers will have some idiotic reason to scapegoat another Horde Warchief and try to convince us poor little Horde wont hurt anybody… for a third time.

Yeah. Heard the story before.
It doesn’t make it right though.
https://i.imgur.com/dWEDZue.png

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