8.1: Jaina Sinks A Horde Fleet

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

then elaborate?

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

Because failure is not fun,

The Failure you talk about are “We failed to win outright the entire war” or “We failed to kill a major character” conveniently forgetting the [Removed by Forum Moderator for inappropriate content] pillage from Barrens to the capital city.

Our wins, are often highly Pyrrhic

But wins nontheless. And its not like wins where you are TOLD you won.
Like Sira telling you “Today the Banshee Queen lost a spare Val’kyr from her 4. A great defeat for the Horde… Oh me and Deralyn along with that whole battalion of NE dark rangers joining? Ignore that. No time to explain.”
A great defeat!

and we are shamed for winning as well.

Are you? Besides Baine and Saurfang no one seems to care much. Blizzard employees routinely make fun of the event. “A nice pile of ashes” famously said.
To be honest the Horde has always been advertised as being an Underdog, under resourced, out numbered, out teched, out muscled and so on.
Yet you are so surprised why the Horde can never have a one on one in a fair fight and win.

Didn’t you pick the Horde specifically for that aspects?

horde has been humilated

Compared to who?
The Alliance player goes through the exact same issues you mentioned earlier.
But here is a kicker.

We always have a moral police telling us we have to be good little boys and girls.
And we are TOLD we won a victory but we never SEE it or FEEL it.

Why? Because of this:

Or because of this

Or this.

I could go on.
But yeah.
If you only played Horde you have no idea what it actually feels to be humiliated by this game.
What was your most humiliating moment?
This?

Or was it this?

Yeah.
Thats the difference between the two factions.

[Hishy-bleeding-hollow (Hishy)]

Doesn’t make it untrue.

Given the entire Horde War Campaign has been one failure after another and that humiliation is a subjective notion based on the individual’s experience and not to be decided or gatekept by you personally, it is very much untrue.

[Jazia-sargeras (Jazia)]

And even if we are the bad guys, it doesn’t change the fact this constant demoralization that comes with it should be allowed. It isn’t fun, much like you don’t find the night elven losses or “victories” fun. WoW should be about having fun, and any story that forces half the playerbase into a depressing role should be avoided. I wouldn’t wish for the inverse to happen, i just want to feel like a hero, or at least lack something other then a mook.

One of the most fun things about SWTOR was how they managed to make you feel like the awesomest hero ever even if you were playing the scummiest Sith in the universe.

Horde players really shouldn’t be forced into the role of evil genocidal maniacs, but if Blizzard really wants to do it, they should do it right!

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

10/10, i can use specific examples to, for example in cataclysm the alliance won in every single night elf zone, but would you really consider them valid wins? You felt like you lost more then you gained if i remember my complaints correcly. And i picked the horde not for being an underdog, i picked the horde because i love monstrous races and the ability to be a good person in a monstrous hide. My love for the races amounts to far more then them being underdogs, i love trolls and forsaken for their resilience, their ability to comeback from setbacks and push on ahead, no matter what happens, Goblins are great for their charisma, and sly charms. Nightborn and Blood Elves have their intelligence and beautiful cities.

Finally, how does the alliance also having humiliating moments negate the horde humiliations? Vol’jin was killed by an unnamed felguard! I am allowed to feel humiliated and hate the humilation, much like you exercise your right to whine about percieved slights on the forums instead of offering solutions and having sympathey for you fellow player.

I get you hate your story, but taking it out of the other sides playerbase does nothing to alleviate your problems, We really should be working together, in trying to get blizzard to do the vital task of hiring writers and taking player feedback into account.

[Mara-kelthuzad (Mara)]

10/10, i can use specific examples to, for example in cataclysm the alliance won in every single night elf zone, but would you really consider them valid wins?

That’s not true, they lost Azshara completely and the horde expanded greatly into Ashenvale. The horde had a base right outside the largest night elf settlement in Ashenvale. The night elves took heavy loses in cataclysm. You obviously skipped that expansion though.

[Serevèn-wyrmrest-accord (Serevèn)]

Yeah idk what they’re smoking. We lost Azshara, half of Ashenvale, and Stonetalon. I can get their confusion with Stonetalon though. Horde posters like to call that a “victory” because we thwarted a bombing and got our civilians out before they took the zone.

[Mara-kelthuzad (Mara)]

Yeah idk what they’re smoking. We lost Azshara, half of Ashenvale, and Stonetalon. I can get their confusion with Stonetalon though. Horde posters like to call that a “victory” because we thwarted a bombing and got our civilians out before they took the zone.

A lot of them don’t seem to know much about what happens to the night elves so they seem to be just making things up. Not really a point in debating with them, but I just wanted to point that obvious falsehood out.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Really? That’s the most condescending thing?

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

Horde was repelled from ashenvale and stonetalon in canon, hence i said you had wins, just wins that failed to be properly portrayed in canon, and i fail to see how Azshara was a loss when the night elves had 0 presence there beforehand.

Once again i know why you think they weren’t wins, but they are canon wins, just never portrayed in game and the way to get those wins where unsatisfactory.

I do get your issue but sometimes i feel you elf fans fail to realize other people have narrative issues that plague them just as much as you.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

When has it been confirmed that the Alliance won stonetalon?

[Kisin-moon-guard (Kisin)]

People are pretty chill on this forum, and telling someone else they don’t understand what true humiliation is sounds like the dialogue of a poorly written anti-hero in a cheesy comicbook than something that belongs in a debate.

[Reallyhappy-dalaran (Reallyhappy)]

so wow then

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

I’m just saying, I’ve seen worse. Like frequent condescending dismissals of someone’s intellect and honesty.

[Kisin-moon-guard (Kisin)]

Well, it IS up there with “I AM MY SCARS.”

[Grandblade-wyrmrest-accord (Grandblade)]

Alright, just did the quest.

I feel like Okri did that more than Jaina.

[Lithya-sargeras (Lithya)]

10/10, i can use specific examples to,

Then do.

for example in cataclysm the alliance won in every single night elf zone, but would you really consider them valid wins?

Could you refer to them specifically?
Because I recall several old vanilla NE locations that are on fire, or completely taken over by the Horde and their trees chopped off.
Is the simple act of Alliance fighting off some NPCs rushing at you constitute a victory now?
Or are you referring to off screen “victories” where character describe how Alliance won in one or two paragraphs.
lol.

Finally, how does the alliance also having humiliating moments negate the horde humiliations? Vol’jin was killed by an unnamed felguard! I am allowed to feel humiliated and hate the humilation, much like you exercise your right to whine about percieved slights on the forums instead of offering solutions and having sympathey for you fellow player.

Because you think your humiliation is equal.
Its not.
Nothing comes close to what has happened to the Alliance by the Horde.
Its not even comparable. I explained it to you but you seem to refuse to understand it.

but taking it out of the other sides playerbase does nothing to alleviate your problems,

There is one thing I can’t stand is false equivalencies and comparisons.
That means both sides are not operating on the same basic facts.
If we can’t even accept the simple underlying facts we can never work together. because we don’t understand what the actual problem is.

Look at those video again.
And REALLY compare them.
Look at CATA Ashenvale again.
And REALLY compare them.

Ashenvale in Cata is pretty much 80% horde. Its not even comparable.
You already heard me on this subject so I wont repeat it.

[Serevèn-wyrmrest-accord (Serevèn)]

I want to be sympathetic and all but its so hard as someone stuck Alliance side all these years. Like it is TOTALLY valid to not like whatever parts of the story you don’t like. But all the same, demanding empathy or sympathy even, its a lot to ask. As petty as it may seem, spending a decade from Cata being told you as a player have nothing to complain about by wave after growing wave of red portraits on these forums is a whole lotta invalidation to chew down and swallow. Its hard to put how one feels about all that aside in one fleeting moment where it for once feels like the tables have turned a little and the Horde is experiencing their first major story beat loss in the game’s history. Like a legitimate loss. No “It was a coup! They technically won against their oppressor!” Just a plain old loss. I know you guys can weather it. I’ve been there. A lot.

The game’s plot has always been this way. Don’t like losing a classic Alliance race? You can always reroll Horde. Don’t like Fandral and Benedictus getting villain batted in some of the most inane plots ever produced for the game? Too bad so sad. Don’t like that every major zone where a classic battleground took place, the Horde gained significant ground in or outright won? Such a shame for you. Don’t like losing Azshara as it becomes the Horde symbol? Ugh always such a whiner you are. Don’t like MoPs intro spelling out plain-spoken that the Alliance is absolutely incompetent and getting crushed? Haha. Don’t like Garrosh or Sylvanas getting the villain bat? Don’t like no name shamans razing a tree the size of Rhode Island? Don’t like Sylvanas going DBZ and pulling the pants over the heads of nearly every major Alliance character all at once? Jaina teleporting some things? That’s WoW.

WoW is an endless train of inane story decisions meant to propel us along loot trails. This honestly just feels like the first time Horde players have really had to deal with this:

I’m just saying, I’ve seen worse. Like frequent condescending dismissals of someone’s intellect and honesty.

Yeah. If “I’m not sympathetic.” is the worst Kisin’s remembering then there’s some serious blind eye stuff going on.

[Kisin-moon-guard (Kisin)]

Yeah. If “I’m not sympathetic.” is the worst Kisin’s remembering then there’s some serious blind eye stuff going on.

“I’m not sympathetic” is not “you don’t get to make arguments because you don’t understand true suffering”.

[Serevèn-wyrmrest-accord (Serevèn)]

I’ve been called a moron, high, stuff that’s been modded, invalidated in the exact way you just described. The difference is that it’s nothing you notice when the argument is pro your point of view.