6 week wait for Catalyst in DF S1

[Angelicus-faerlina]

Mythic raids already had easy access to tier, sole access to the highest ivl loot in the game, and much faster gearing after the first two weeks.

M+ is limited to one piece of mythic quality loot a week from the vault.
Raids are not limited in that way, The loot from the raid itself is an addition to the one piece a week from the vault.

M+ has easier access to inferior loot that will be replaced. This is true.

Heroic raiders often have issues with mythic+ because they can outgear the raid. And if that is the case, then you belong in mythic raids.

It’s your own fault.

If you’re good a enough to player to play minor league baseball, but decide to play little league with 8 year old kids … and then complain it’s too easy. Well bud, that’s on you.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

when raiders have had a total of 9 chances at heroic loot, compared to M+ players having infinite chances at heroic loot.

Mythic raid opens week 1.

M+ doesn’t drop heroic loot at all.

So your point is not rooted in reality.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

With the realities of lockout vs no lockout,

Lockout for very high ilvl loot.

No lockout for lukewarm leftovers.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

I fully expect them to implement some sort of M+ lockout in DF.

If they do, keys better start dropping Heroic raid and Mythic raid level loot, and more loot per dungeon.

A Horific Visions style lockout, with 20s dropping Mythic raid quality items, and doing it again drops the ilvl by 1 level upgrade each time.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

and let end of dungeon scale up to mythic end boss at +25 or so

I can already hear the Raider tears from here. Brewa will be all like “I’m forced to do M+ +25s now to even raid, these raids are tuned to +25 gear”.

@Nilann-aegwynn

Catalyst to unlock the first week, but that’s not even what players asked for. ~2-3 weeks would’ve been much better, because it still takes 1 month to get all pieces.

Should open with Mythic, you’re still looking at 4 weeks of wait time to get 4 pc once it opens.

@Galedron-area-52

One half of the forums is crying that the raid is dead on arrival.
The other half is crying that you have to enter the raid to obtain your tier set for the first 6 weeks.

Or listen here : Group Loot pugs are going to be awful and now with Catalyst delayed to 6 weeks, you’ll have to suffer through these Group Loot pugs (thank god for guild raiding!).

Wasn’t that hard to reconcile both sides if you bother to listen.

@Echab-zuljin

Raiders do M plus because raid drops are so poor that you fall behind quick if you don’t do some mythic plus runs.

It’s quite the opposite. Keystoners do Mythic raids because Raiding gives you much higher ilvl gear earlier in the season. Waiting for M+ to catch up takes quite a while.

Meanwhile, Mythic plus is good early season only at helping you skip Normal raids, so you have a good floor to step into Heroic and maybe even Mythic, where all the sweet upgrades are, but is quite lacking at helping you push keys.

But never let the facts get the way of a good M+ bashing session. Hearing people talk, you’d think +2s drop Mythic raid ilvl gear with 0 lockout.

[Tidesaga-thrall]

@Lyeffion-uther

Raid participation or accelerated gearing for non-raiders?

This isn’t about accelerated gearing, obviously. It is about equal gearing. Turn off tier for all I care.

Or, make M+ equivalent to challenge modes. Turn off gear scaling in general.

@Lyeffion-uther

I choose not to participate in the latter, but I also don’t cry about it when I can’t get those rewards.

Please remind me what pve power bonus we get each Season for hitting Rival+? Oh right, we don’t outside pvp. But we still need tier for pvp (as well as M+).

I’m not crying about reward. I’m voicing my opinion about gearing inequality in M+.

If you can’t handle us actually getting a reward for clearing early season gear wise, then turn off all gear scaling. Period.

@Lyeffion-uther

we’re talking about actual character power, and the bar has to be higher for that kind of thing.

I mean, if you were reading the thread, or anything I had said previous, this is exactly what was going on.

@Raiimir-stormrage

But never let the facts get the way of a good M+ bashing session. Hearing people talk, you’d think +2s drop Mythic raid ilvl gear with 0 lockout.

Exactly. Ugh.

[Ben-ysera]

Sounds like the easy answer is to make tier only work in raids and cap ppls ilvl so that mythic + is fair for all. garbage system if you need to raid in order to compete at the high end.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Ben-ysera

Sounds like the easy answer is to make tier only work in raids

The easy answer is Catalyst week 1 or 2.

Not destroying more RPG elements.

[Ben-ysera]

Sure. That could help. Doesn’t fix the other issue of mythic whiners having a gear advantage when competing for leader board.

[Aveldein-area-52]

Nope. This problem never existed when PVP sets had their own unique set bonuses but now that they don’t want to have separate bonuses for PVP and M+ these sets and bonuses are intended for everyone.

6 weeks after mythic is too long.

[Lyeffion-uther (Lyeffion)]

@Tidesaga-thrall

This isn’t about accelerated gearing, obviously. It is about equal gearing.

@Tidesaga-thrall

If you can’t handle us actually getting a reward for clearing early season gear wise, then turn off all gear scaling. Period.

As someone who has spent far more time running M+ than raiding since the middle-end of Legion, I don’t want to see M+ pulled equal to raiding from a gearing standpoint. Maybe you do but I don’t, so our votes (assuming we got any) would cancel each other out. I believe raiding, because it is more complex and has traditionally been the endgame content of this game, needs to continue to fill that role.

M+ to me has a lot of positives and negatives; the positives are that once raid groups get over ~12 people, the group doesn’t develop the same kind of togetherness that smaller raids do (which is why I preferred 10-man to 25-man long ago), voice comms get hectic, etc., and M+ avoids that problem. The negatives, though, are that it’s basically endless (also repetitive) content that never really reaches an endpoint.

I think the SL gearing model ended up being terrible for raiding, because I was getting better gear from easier (M+) content once keys got to +15 and over, with the lone exception of some trinkets (i.e., 278 Sigil).

In competitive (and by that I mean MDI/tournament) M+, it probably is best to turn off tier and on top of that, set everyone at the same level. If they could do the same for world-first races in raiding, I wouldn’t have a problem with that, either, but the difference is that in world-first, you’re trying to get the first kill of the boss altogether, whereas in M+, everyone can kill the bosses, it’s just how many affixes/levels did you add to the base number; the dungeon is always finish-able. Content that is essentially akin to racing should probably be governed as such, just as F1/NASCAR/etc. regulates everyone into basically the same engine displacements, chassis measurements, tires, etc.

But if they’re not going to do that, like I said before, my vote goes to raiding to be put in a position of primacy, both in gearing and importance. I could play this game without the M+ system but not sure I’d like it without the raid system.

[Murdercarpet-zuljin]

@Lyeffion-uther

We didn’t even have tier or a Catalyst up until six months ago; it’s not going to push anyone out of raiding.

But it did push them out of raiding; why would it be different in DF than in SLs, where normal raiders had to wait 12 weeks to get the tier set their content was tuned to require?

Earlier expansions: “Hey Joe, you just leveled up. What’s your ilvl? You want an invite?”

Shadowlands: Joe doesn’t even get considered, because he couldn’t possibly be ready. He just leveled up and has no legendaries. And his guild has been failing to kill any bosses for weeks.

@Lyeffion-uther

If anything, it would send more mythic raiders into M+ trying for a workaround

Who cares about them, when you have personally decided to destroy raiding from the bottom up.

[Jèckyll-barthilas]

@Antiman-bloodhoof

Bad luck is one thing, but if they don’t raid, why do they need tier at all, let alone early on?

Because 4 set tier will be needed in M+. Not just raid. Not everyone who plays can raid or die.

Some people say they dont want to M+ just to raid, it goes both ways, some dont want to raid just to M+

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Jèckyll-barthilas

Because 4 set tier will be needed in M+

With how unimpactful these sets are compared to sepulcher, You should be able to do 20s without them.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

6 weeks is lame, but if that’s the case it shouldn’t have charges.

Time gate on a time gate is dumb.

All the raid vs mythic+ talk is Blizzard just absolutely failing reward to difficulty ratios.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

With how unimpactful these sets are compared to sepulcher, You should be able to do 20s without them

Why would I invite someone that instantly does 5-7% less damage to my key though ?

Raid or die is alive and well, and if you have bad luck in raids, well too bad for you.

[Thundahstahm-stormrage]

PVPers should be getting their own, better gear for PVP so im not sure theyd want Tier (unless they screw up the tuning.)

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Thundahstahm-stormrage

PVPers should be getting their own, better gear for PVP so im not sure theyd want Tier

Bonuses > stat sticks.

[Thundahstahm-stormrage]

Not sure what youre arguing here.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Thundahstahm-stormrage

Not sure what youre arguing here

I’m not, just telling you PVPers will use Tier.

[Thundahstahm-stormrage]

So you are making an argument…

Theyll go with the best gear. It should be Conquest gear.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Thundahstahm-stormrage

So you are making an argument…

Simply stating a fact.

@Thundahstahm-stormrage

Theyll go with the best gear.

Bonuses > stat sticks

@Thundahstahm-stormrage

It should be Conquest gear.

But it will be tier. Converted from Conquest gear.

[Azuremi-proudmoore (Azuremi)]

first tier set bonuses are awful anyway doesn’t even matter that much