You’re misinterpreting what I wrote, and I think you’re doing so intentionally. Look at the statement in context of the rest of the post and don’t be obtuse. The loot from LFR is always going to be 370. It doesn’t scale based upon your ilvl. It can forge higher, but it won’t be lower than 370. World quest gear starts very low, 295 or so, and scales up slowly with your ilvl. If you’re 350 ilvl your world quests aren’t going to award 370 loot but you can queue for LFR and the loot that drops will be.
Edit: Nm, clearly based upon reading your other posts that’s exactly what you’re doing. I never said loot was guaranteed to drop. I said loot was guaranteed to be 370 ilvl. And because you’re salty about the change you tried to twist it into a statement about guaranteed loot so you could argue with your own strawman. I mean, if that makes you feel better about yourself and the change have at it.
At this stage of the tier there isn’t much progression going on anymore for normal. That lasted one week. To compare a carry in normal with paying millions for mythic is silly really.
I understood what you wrote but your claim is that you will gear faster in LFR at 350 than doing world quest gear. In the current state If you que to lfr and i start doing world quests I will indeed receive lower loot, but I will receive more loot at a much faster rate that you will with raiding.
Raiding
8 bosses with a chance of maybe 3 pieces 4 on leap day.
You are locked from this content until the following week.
WQ
363 for 370+
348 for 355+
I have to raise my ilvl to 363 to receive LFR item level gear. I cant judge the amount of WQ providing gear but over the course of a week I am sure to see at least 20 WQ that provide gear which will scale into upgrades.
I will also receive 7 emissaries which say 3-4 will be gear which scale to upgrades.
I am very confident that in much less time than running 8 bosses in lfr I will receive much better rewards.
No, that is not my claim. Someone asked why do LFR if wq’s offered 370. I offered one easy example of why people would do LFR if 370 gear was an upgrade and multiple reasons why people do LFR right now that don’t need 370 gear.
Which makes the rest of your diatribe meaningless.
So let’s go back to the start of what you wrote, “I understood what you wrote but…”
But you claimed my statement was about guaranteed loot:
So you lied about understanding what I wrote or you lied above with that statement. Which one is it?
Are you confused? Do you not realize that you can do both? Or that any argument pretending one is faster than the other is entirely irrelevant because they aren’t mutually exclusive activities?
You didn’t even try to put any thought into your argument, did you?
This all came from the question --But why would you bother running LFR for loot when LFR drops 370 which is the same ilevel as world quest rewards.–
Based on this the player is already high enough to receive LFR level gear through world quests. You brought the discussion that
People do not run LFR to help out friends as M0 are much faster at funneling 370 loot. Also people do not fish for titanforges in LFR that is just silly.
So what you feel lfr has to offer is not comparable to what WQ have to offer especially after the increase in scaling. I get what you were going for but it is not valid. The asking player stated it was already equal to the WQ rewards being offered.
The point people are trying to make is that as they continuously increase the ilvl reward of World quests it is beginning the evaluated content like LFR, Normal BOD, and now Heroic. The main problem is we are to the point that current heroic level gear is outsourced to trivialized world quest content.
LFR is no longer an effective nor productive use of a players time in 95% of the player base. I am not confused and feel you forgot what what your first post was pushing towards.
On a side note I took your post towards the smarter gearing aspect when the player was already out gearing lfr content. That was my bad and I am sorry for rushing to assume.
Good point about the level-scaling. I forgot about that.
So normal-mode and LFR are still useful until your character gets caught up to the point where WQ loot is better.
How long does it take to get that far? 3 days? 1 week?
Personally, I think their system is still off what it should be. It’s ok until it scales up to max, then it’s off.
Ilevel of loot rewards should be roughly based on how much effort you put into it.
Running an LFR takes probably half an hour + queue time. And there’s no guarantee of getting a reward. Running a world quest takes 2 minutes and the reward is guaranteed. Running an emissary quest takes maybe 10-15 minutes and the reward is guaranteed.
Personally, I think the rewards from both emissary quests and world quests should be considerably lower than what they are now to reflect this difference in effort.
Uh. I do. I have a friend I literally just ran him through LFR on his new shaman because he wanted a shield. So I hopped on my alt shaman (the one I’m posting on) and helped him. No shield though
I responded to both possibilities because it wasn’t explicit. Both answers were valid answers that are reasons why someone runs LFR if they need 370 gear and if they don’t. I don’t care if you don’t agree. They’re both reasons why I go right now and will continue going in the future on different toons.
Listen, I’m not interested in having you speak for everyone else and pretend there’s one universal answer here. There’s not. People run LFR right now that very obviously don’t need the gear. I’ve seen many mythic geared people doing LFR. I’ve also seen many people who do need the gear in LFR. This isn’t going to change. I’m not buying your ‘sky is falling’ rhetoric.
Stop speaking for other people. I know what my post said because I wrote it. You’re shifting goalposts and backpedaling. It’s mildly entertaining. If you don’t feel LFR is worth it, don’t do LFR. If you don’t feel normal is worth it, don’t do normal. If you don’t feel heroic is worth it, don’t do heroic. That’s it. I will continue to do all of them because I have every class at 120 and I spend way too much time playing this game, the bulk of them I only do solo content on as it’s what I spend my time on outside of raids/M+. And I have every intention of continuing to do all the content you seem to think everyone is magically going to stop doing.
ok gotcha did not know you were posting out of topic to the post. You are welcome to your discussions points as much as everyone else and i hope you do well on your LFR Adventures.
I want to say 363 will start allowing 370 WQ gear but i may be off 1-2 Ilvls.
This is really my main issue, WQ gear is going to hit heroic rated gear leaving only mythic/mythic + weekly as gear producing content outside of world quests.
My best was getting 120 and logging out at 372 ilvl that same day, though I made a full set of crafted gear to supplement and got lucky with Darkshore rares and other content. Edit: Oh, and it was also timewalking so once I got high enough to queue for that it was easy street to 365’s from there. The hardest part seems to be getting high enough to do Heroics. On toons I’ve had bad luck with it took me a few days to get there and I didn’t make crafted gear for them. I’ve got every class at 120 and I finished the last few after the release of BoD.
Here’s the thing, people who raid and who do high M+ are going to outgear everyone else. Method was ~410 on average when they cleared world first BoD back in January. It’s mid April now. People doing solo content aren’t hitting 410. If they got really lucky and were Alliance with the 400 AOO they might be pushing 400ish. I’ve got ~6 alts that are all around 395ish. But my raid toon and my M+ toon (two different ones) are well above that. Effort is rewarded by being higher ilvl. It’s just not egregious with an ilvl wall for casuals like it used to be.
My gut feeling is that heroic and mythic raiding, and mythic+ dungeons are all fine.
Emissaries dropping mostly 395 base loot is still lower than 400 base heroic dungeon loot. The only equivalent ilevel loot are azerite pieces but that only applies to 3 slots.
However, I do think LFR and normal mode raiding are falling behind the curve. Once a player has spent the 1-3 days needed to cap out WQ and emissary reward scaling, then that player can expect BETTER gear by running WQs and Emissaries as their main source of gear than if they ran LFR or normal raids.
That isn’t right. Even LFR takes way more effort than running WQs or Emissaries. And LFR doesn’t award guaranteed loot.
Here’s the thing. You just compared the WF guild to the casual player base. I think what people are asking for is a gradient. If your argument is “well we’re not as geared as method.” I don’t think that’s a particularly strong argument.
No matter how you slice it… it’s silly that doing a 2 minute guaranteed success task yields the same reward as a multi-hour long definitely not guaranteed heroic raid (both reward and completion are not guaranteed).
Let’s also not forget that the world isn’t split into casual players and mythic hardcore raiders. There is a gradient, and everyone who’s progressing in heroic atm will be impacted by this. Some will see it as “yay more loot!” (sounds like you), others will see this as “wow… so everything I just worked for got turned into ground zero for character progression… great…”
Personally… I’m fine with gear resets happening each patch as that only makes sense in the current version of WoW. Each patch is it’s own self contained content progression, almost like a new ladder getting released in Diablo. But this? This is a reset within the same tier of content. No… I’m not really ok with that.
Edit: As I said before… I’d rather they nerf the content as they did in the past, than reset everyone’s progression.
Edit2: To further emphasize the gradient I’m talking about. Blizzard themselves have stated that 15-30 ilvls is what they’ve determined to indicate a clear upgrade in power. This patch will see ground zero for the most casual players set at ilvl 400. I’m a 6/9M raider and I’m only 414 despite running loads of M+ and plenty of Norm, Heroic, and Mythic raids.
You are forcing the entire player base into a span of 15 ilvls. That includes completely casual players, normal mode players, heroic mode players, and mythic mode players. Only super lucky TF players or players who very sporadically play the game (ie pretty much don’t play), will be outside of that very narrow window of power.
I don’t understand why catchup now happens before the next tier/season of content comes out. If this was coming with 8.2, it would make total sense. But why is quest gear catching up to Heroic BoD levels while BoD is still current content?
Thwy did during in Uldir too so apparently this is the new model (when it happened in Uldir, people told me it was a one time thing for that tier, so at least I get to say I told you so?)
Exactly, when people talk about raiding as a gear source there’s this sudden assumption that every raider is in a guild that has Heroic on farm from the get-go. Totally erases more casual raiders from the equation (ironically).
I mean, I understand this point of view but I don’t see it as a big deal. People run LFR for reasons other than gear and the activities aren’t mutually exclusive. If someone doesn’t need the gear from LFR they’re not obligated to keep running it though they can if they want to farm augment runes or shards. And I’d beg to differ on the effort it takes to run LFR. I see such activities are pretty comparable.
The Azerite change I actually like, mostly because I don’t think there’s enough sources of Azerite for people who don’t raid or do M+ for the TR. It’s not necessarily hard to get some 400 Azerite, but it’s a pain right now getting enough to try to focus on the best traits for someone not doing organized group content.
But as far as normal mode is concerned. I tend to think the point is about getting people a gear boost to push them through normal and into heroic. And again, it’s not mutually exclusive content. People can use the gear from Emissaries to push them through normal and into harder difficulties if they are raiding and want to keep raiding. It’s just an item power boost, that doesn’t invalidate the raid. It’s no different than farming early bosses while a guild is stuck on a DPS check boss later in a raid to get a boost to push past it. Some people are skilled and don’t need as much gear to do the content, ala Method and other top guilds. Then there’s a whole spectrum of raiders including casual(ish) folks who take an entire tier to clear normal/heroic. They do so overgeared for the content typically. There’s nothing wrong with that, and this gear increase will help them power through the content before 8.2 rolls around. It also gives casual folks who do no organized content at all a way to progress their characters until 8.2 hits because they’ve hit a wall.
Then why not nerf the encounter instead? That’s what they did in the past for over a decade. Why was that not an appropriate method to help players boost themselves over those humps? Why turn gearing upside down on its head?
Also, while I’m one of those players that the raid wouldn’t be invalidated for (hell I still do mythic despite the reward to effort ratio basically being zero), it’s disingenuous to assume that all players are like that. Accept that there are players that exist that prioritize the acquisition of gear/character power. For them, you ARE devaluing the heroic version of the raid.
Again, you achieve the exact same result by putting in small nerfs to the encounters, yet you can maintain the steady acquisition of power for the player base. The only players that don’t continue to acquire power are those that flat out refuse to do the content. To which I say… That’s no ones fault but their own if they truly want to acquire power… It’s right there for them to get.
Because you’re intentionally slippery sloping my argument. My point was people who do mythic were 410 3 months ago. People who do solo world content now are maybe pushing 400. There’s a gradient that exists already. You’re just intentionally glossing it over to be hyperbolic about this change.
So it takes 2 minutes to do an Emissary now? This is what I mean. Being hyperbolic is silly. World quests will scale to 370. That is not heroic ilvl. Emissaries will scale to 395 for non-Azerite and 400 for Azerite. They don’t give the same reward as Heroic raiding except Azerite because Azerite only comes in 15 ilvl increments. And it’s completely random because the things are equipment caches and not specific world quest rewards. And it’s not equivalent to Heroic gear from Crucible.
Essences in 8.2 are my path. Sorry that ain’t yours.
@Everyone Else
A different game, ROBLOX, caused me to behave like this. When I see something that benefits nice people, I make threads like this.
Bad company policies made me quit ROBLOX. There’s still immediate hope for WoW, otherwise I’m letting my remaining three days pass and going to FF14, if my potential quitting thread is any indication.
Imo the best way Blizzard’s tried to do this was with VP upgrades in MoP.
you couldn’t get them all at once, so the nerf was gradual
they were a reward for playing each week, so it felt less patronizing than just being handed a nerf automatically (even though VP was very easy to get, you still had to do stuff)
they applied to all gear, so e.g. rep gear was boosted in ilvl but raid gear was also boosted in ilvl. So raid gear was still just as high/rewarding vs. other content as it had been before upgrades released
You’re acting like there’s one reason to make this change and one alternate solution that fixes it that can be done instead. There’s not and your solution doesn’t.
What about all the casual folks that don’t do organized group content who are sitting at 395ish ilvl who have zero opportunities for ilvl upgrades now who are most likely not logging in anymore? Let’s be clear here, I think that’s the biggest reason why this change is being made.
So no, nerfing a raid does not achieve the same result. You need to look at the totality of the impact of the change and not just one narrow view. And if you want to say ‘screw people who don’t want to do organized content’…well…that’s why you’re not in charge of design decisions. The game isn’t being catered to you specifically.
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