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Are you still harping on this āyou have to play to understand itā argument that continues to fail?
For one, there is theorycrafting, then there are sims, neither of which require you to actually play.
This post is just you trying to character bash yet again.
Most likely. Its nothing to do with the weapon however, its because of how people have been behaving that advocate for 2h. Character bashing, taking over threads that have nothing to do with it, getting threads shut down and so on.
While that quote is most likely my words, its taken out of context completely.
Its happening in this thread and its the same people that do it.
You know what else is happening in this thread? You having a quarter of the posts.
EDIT: Theyāre not mobbing you, theyāre voicing support for 2H while trying to shoot down arguments against getting it back. The only reason it might look like mobbing you is because you post more than everyone else on the entire planet, Iām convinced that you donāt actually play and pay $15 a month to troll forums.
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No, they have gotten threads shut down for insulting others.
I also didnt realize that its a crime to post on a public forum.
Cool it with the persecution complex, I never said anything of the sort.
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Then dont talk like posting on a public forums is a bad thing.
Your right - its because your reacting emotionally. Which isnāt odd; because you try to be rational - but if you look at the threads - your largely the only person actually making an argument against 2 handed frost. I am sure there are others - but in the process of having to dig up that quote (as I recalled it distinctly since it was a reply to me) I had to go through your post history. Its basically like 90%+ you arguing against 2 handed Frost - but there is a lack of other people really supporting you; typically just people trolling because they know it riles folks up. I think youāve lost a lot of objectivity throughout this and as you have pointed out it seems like your being piled onā¦but that only because your the only person actually making an argument against - so of course people are going to argue with you. Your welcome to provide more context - but you have tried to say multiple times now that you never said you did not want 2 handed to return - and since I can only take you at your word - that is what I am doing and not trying to apply other meanings to your words. I can only guess at the reason being because you feel the revivalists are victimizing you - but again I think that more because your the only one really making decent arguments against (and you might seem a bit mean/condescending in some of your responses).
The impression I get is that your argument boils down to ābringing back 2 handed frost will hurt frost because it will make frost harder to balanceā & āIf 2 handed frost comes back it will escalate to demands that 2 handed frost be improved.ā
I responded before with that my personal experience was that I was fine with poorly working 2 handed frost - I used it plenty of times when it was working poorly - I also used Masterfrost (DW) and based off those experiences generally I would prefer 2 handed frost as I feel its comfortable and convenient - optimization aside.
I would love a simple 2 handed DPS spec similar to what I once enjoyed - sadly that isnāt Unholy - as I have played that quite a lot too and simply do not enjoy the playstyle; and I am not asking anyone to do anything that should harm anyone else unless BLIZZARD decides they should. I also enjoy theory-crafting and dreaming up crazy spec ideaās and I like variety - even if the output isnāt all that great. I chatted about the idea of a crazy DK fire spec, a pet-less unholy and even a gladiator like Blood spec - but I have not asked for any of those things only pondered how they would work and what those things might look like in WoW.
That being said I do see a interest in something and I support the request which is why I weigh in and if being a warlock had taught me anything is that you have to keep chatting about these sort of things if you want to see that sort of change - and based on blizzards actions I feel it is sort of blood in the water; while I may not be a hardcore 2 handed frost revivalist I see no harm in supporting it.
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Iā¦didnāt? Iām not even sure of how you got there from me trying to point out why you might think that people are dogpiling you, specifically.
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Not against 2h, but thanks for making me say it yet again.
Would 2h be behind DW if weapon restrictions were lifted? If its a yes then its a problem. Pointing out a problem just means its an area to be fixed. People were saying that 2h was better than DW, does that make me anti-2h for pointing out that its not actually true?
I also dont want to go into this dogpile thing, but its easy to show, its a group of about 4-6 people that follow each other liking each others posts and have even gotten threads shut down for insulting other players.
And no, bringing 2h back wouldnt touch Frost as a whole unless MoP/WoD style came back. From logs and sims this split in playstyle hurt the spec overall.
And if 2h came back it would be behind DW. Thats it.
The reason why I bring up playing 2h right now which you can do, is that people are not fine with a poorly working 2h frost or even low dps. I take it you are going only as far back as MoP/WoD since you brought up Masterfrost and you prefered 2h frost playstyle, which is actually more like Wrath/Cata playstyle when there wasnt a split in playstyles.
I liked Meta demo, my favorite Warlock spec from wrath to WoD. It was kind of similar to the Rift Necromancer spec as well which was my favorite in that game. Its not going to come back though. Getting Molten Core and Soul Fire back was something that I would say improved the overall gameplay but I just hate all the pets, its something that was removed in favor of giving it to another class. 2h however was removed because the balance was a nightmare. There wasnt a way to really buff or nerf one without touching the other.
Right now 2h and DW base damage output are so close to being similar. I got 266 weapons, tried to get them without versatility or mastery on them, and the difference in obliterate was 15 damage. If I had gotten haste crit weapons across the board then I would have had more things to compare. But 15 damage. Its the closest to being balanced now than it possibly ever was with 1 little tweak. You wont really solve more KM procs for DW, but it really could be the closest balance ever to a point where you just choose what you want. Essentially making them stat sticks.
So what would the difference be? Razorice. Its really the only thing keeping them so far apart. So when I say 2h is going to be behind due to missing out on 15% frost damage, I dont see how people get to āanti-2hā. Its really as simple as combining Fallen Crusader and Razorice into a specific, frost only, 2h runeforge and lifting weapon restrictions.
I find it funny how I have continuously said this yet im still anti-2h.
I think in this case there is a misunderstanding. For myself, and I suspect for some of the other common posters, like Maudin, Trumpknight, Frostlich, possibly others, correct me if Iām wrong for citing you in this ā itās an overall aesthetic issue. Itās not just walking around in Orgrimmar or Stormwind with a 2H like we can now, it also includes the overall feel for how the class plays. The actual damage isnāt a huge deal, but if we canāt use half our abilities it is, and transmog only option doesnāt work because flailing a giant sword in front of you like a kid with a wrapping paper tube also affects the feel of the class.
Does that clarify anything?
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2.6 seconds is the base weapon speed for 1h weapons. It would only use the attack animation for your main hand weapon. 2h weapon has a base weapon speed of 3.6. This gets lowered by haste of course, but you wouldnt be attacking like a D3 berserker with an auto attack build where it looks like a child that just ate 4 pounds of sugar. Not to mention that you really shouldnt notice it due to abilities taking over on animations when used. How many times do you really notice auto attacks?
2h would not change anything about how the class plays. It would really just have a different look unless the weapon has different stats.
I just dont know how you can really notice auto attacks unless you have a crazy amount of downtime and are starring at your character. Am I missing something?
First, that didnāt answer literally the only question I asked.
Second, thatās almost twice as fast and then offhand numbers just sort of pop up out of nowhere. Also, yes, I do notice autoattacks, Iām not sure how you donāt, so I guess thatās going to have to be chalked up to some kind of perception difference.
EDIT: you also donāt know thatās how it would work, unless youāre a blizzard dev.
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I dont because I dont watch my character when more important things are going on?
2h weapons arent put in the oh weapon unless you are fury, so it takes the animation timing of your main hand. Just like the opposite, when you transmog the blades over a 2h you only auto with the main hand.
2.6 seconds 3.6 seconds, the difference is 1 secondā¦ how is that almost twice as fast? 2.6+2.6 is 5.2. White attacks pop up out of nowhere anyways since they continue when you are using abilities.
Your post was about aesthetics and how you would be attacking fast and it just wouldnt look right if transmog was the solution for blizzard. Abilities would be no faster, and auto attacks are mostly hidden by abilities.
Im really not seeing any issue.
You still havenāt answered the only question I had asked, but from the context of your posts, Iām going to have to go with no, that didnāt clarify anything with you.
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So you didnt talk about what I was responding to?
I can only speak for myself here (which is Mauden), but you are entirely correct, and that has been one of the most frustrating thing about these threads.
No matter how many times itās been explained that a DPS loss does not matter as we just want to wield big swords again, thatās the thing they keep bringing up. Then assumptions about how everyone will complain about the DPS loss if we actually do get 2h back.
And then if the aesthetics and being fine with a DPS loss are even acknowledged, itās with the troll response of
and thatās endlessly infuriating.
I truly believe their posts are in bad faith at this point.
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Its been shown that a dps loss does actually matter. If you think you wouldnt see a āI cant get into a dungeon with 2h frostā then you must not have payed attention over the years.
Again I am simply taking you on the statement of not wanting people to get what they are asking for; again you have stated your reason but that does not invalidate your statement does it?
Youāve had people state its not actually a problem for them (Myself included - I played 2handed Frost when it was far inferior to DW) There are many other problems that are higher priority and it comes across as you trying to inject mission creep to validate why it cannot/should not be done. Again I am not saying you are anti-DW outside of any reason then your statements - but if you look at your post history - you come across as very adversarial to anyone suggesting 2handed frost the majority of the time.
Going to take your word on that - again though I find you seen to generally always be arguing with the 2 handed frost revivalists and because its mostly you it really seem like your mostly alone on this - others who would be on that side of the argument seem to generally troll with a quick zinger and disappear leaving you to fend for yourself.
I agree - a enforced split in playstyle would hurt the spec over-all because then you would need to balance 2 things - but thats not what everyone is asking for (a few areā¦but we have had the whole AP explanation to death)
I think your missing the point - trying to use 2 handed frost removes more then it provides. I would ask you to point out any frost DK that says they never use KM/Rime - Obliterate or Frost Strike. Those are things the class is intended and designed to do. If you cannot do those things then you are not really playing the Frost Death knight - if you allow people to mechanically do those things with a 2 hander - then the loss of damage is purely on the weapon choice and its a choice those people make and deal with. I will go back as far as Wrath because that was when my DK was made.
Wrath - DW
Cata -2h
MoP -DW
Wod - 2h - Blackrock unholy and then DW at Hellfire
Legion - Unholy mostly - did some DW but not a lot just to collect appearances really.
BfA - DW and Unholy - Unholy through most of EP and wasnt around for Daz/Shrine.
Quick note on the topic of Warlocks - Green Fire is a good example of a persistant request being made - I too mourn old school demo. I played a Lock in Vanilla and TBC and was lucky enough to make it all the way to BT.
Folks asking for balanced Frost 2handed - just that you remove the weapon limitation on the skills - thats all they want (for the most part - some folks will never be happy.
As far as how you would āfixā it if you cared to make the 2 playstyles equal? I would suggest just having a Frost damage Runeforge that only works on 2 handed - based on your feedback it would have to start around 15%? Since its only frost damage - only Frost would use it. Since its only for 2 handed weapons - only 2 handed Frost DKs would use it. Its not perfect - but folks are not asking for perfection here - just a simple tweak that used to exist.
Ultimately you come across as a victim of your own passions - maybe its your strong desire for balance; maybe its because folks are rude to you; maybe its because you pretty much always respond and all our desires for last word take over.
Me I enjoy our discussions and I find your insight actually welcome - which is why I try to avoid getting heated and go on any sort of personal attack because while we may disagree on things I do not think of you as someone who wants others denied something just so they are unhappy - but it does come across as you wanting people denied something likely because you are passionate about the discussion.
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Well, youāve had nothing more than Heroic Dungeons done for a year and a half, but youāre still obviously (maybe) subscribed to the game, so it doesnāt seem like you do.
I was actually entertained with 2H when I tried it yesterday. Maintaining 40k DPS with my two main abilities greyed out was definitely something to laugh about. Now, I understand you donāt know what Iām talking about because you donāt play Death Knight, but to kind of go into how this was possible, Rime is the key to high AoE DPS, and the Frozen Tempest trait allows me to get a free proc in 3+ target AoE with Remorseless Winter, so I donāt even need Obliterate. And I want to spend Runes I can use Breath of Sindragosa and barely maintain it with ERW and Howling Blast spams. Also, the auto-attack talent boosts DPS a lot when Iāve spent my runes. Really, with the whole Azerite system we have, most of our DPS isnāt even coming from class abilities. Anyone that runs Mythic Keystones knows Focusing Iris is going to be #1, unless youāre me and mastered Remorseless Winter upkeep.
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