Its a compound word, and its widely used usage is the way it is played. Picking a race, other than actual usable race abilities, doesnt change the gameplay of the spec. A lot of these race differences only really help the top players since they know how to use it all properly. The average player just picks it because “aww Vulpera are so cute!”
A tank that gets healed every time they take damage, isnt going to change the gameplay. It might make mistakes a little more forgiving, but you are still going to do what you should be doing on the same class of a different race.
I can’t wait until haste-focussed unholy dualwields, as is proper for the spec!! Unholy is not a slow lumbering giant with a powerful weapon, it’s an icnredibly fast storm of slashes from smaller blades! It also benefits from the incredible gallery of one handed weapons with haste bonuses!
Never understood why people want other players to be unhappy. That’s like wishing Unholy became staff or 1 handers+off-hand (which would be similar to WC2 Death knights) regardless I see no reason to stop supporting 2 handed frosts return.
At this point, I honestly hope Outbreaks enjoys being stuck with “Death ROGUES” if he wants 2h Frost to never return so badly and keep us stuck with DW. Especially after he keeps behaving like that when we peacefully tried to express our desire for 2h’s return time and time again.
Alright, which sub group of 2h supporters do you listen to then? No matter which group you listen to the others are going to be disappointed and unhappy. Bring it back through transmog so nothing has to be dont to the spec? People who want the restrictions lifted, who have already voiced their distaste for the transmog option as much as their distaste for 1h weapons, will be disappointed. Bring back the weapon option and the people who want 2h back and big obliterate crits will be disappointed since 2h will not solve that issue. Then there are the people that just absolutely hate DW and want it to be removed from the class entirely, or given to unholy for some weird reason even though it doesnt actually fit the spec.
So who do you listen to? Or do you just ignore it all, give them a response of “we would like to do it” which could mean “we would like to do it, but its not actually possible to pull off and has been tried in the past so we arent” and ignore the rest and just focus on the spec itself and keep it balanced with other classes and specs?
most people who are against 2H are either people who don’t play dk/frost or are people afraid of blzzard pushing dw to unholy, so they face the same problem.
in this area we have like 4-5 people who fit exactly that, him being one of those
Myself? I would go with the most all-encompassing option (bringing back the actual weapon) and leave it at that. I have no issue with blizzard just considering DW as the baseline for Frost - but I would simply like the option to use my Frost spec abilities with a 2 Hander equipped.
There are people who do not understand how AP works - they will want these scarey big Oblit crits; on the other hand you will have people wanting 2 handed Frost “balanced” - despite the fact that the sheer nature of WoW means balance isn’t really possible with how often they change systems.
I believe simply allowing 2 handers to use the existing skills will mean some folks will nerf themselves - but not to such a epic degree that it will matter too much. The min-maxers will remain DW; as would DW enthusiasts. In the end that solution will divide 2 hander Frost revivalists into a bunch of much smaller sub groups. In the end its just something - its a weapon option and that should be fine; much in the same way that A caster might dual wield as opposed to us a staff. One is often better then the other.
If at some point Frost skills being used by a 2 hander breaks something - blizzard can pump the breaks - but given the nature of Frost DPS I do not suspect 2 hander white damage is going to cause the rapture - so let them just have their fun.
The playerbase in the end will always whine about something - we don’t have many productive discussions on our own forum here to be honest. I mean its like how people do not want others brainstorming about how you would do 2 handed Frost. I think there are people who have a emotional desire for 2 handed frost; I admit I am not one of those - I just have carrying a entire second weapon set (which is why I frequently swap to unholy - but I dislike the playstyle of it imo and actually prefer Frost). If blizzard wants to fix 2 handed frost - they can chuck that unto the assuredly massive wishlist of items - right after then figure out the point of even still having Runeforging.
Just my two cents and I see people getting really annoyed that people take the moment to share what they want - unfortunately because of the fact you can pretty easily bury a discussion on these forums - the 2 handed frost revivalists keep mentioning it because they want to keep focus on it - some of those even do it to derail other actual discussions; but for the most part its either a thread or a offhand comment.
blizzard could also solve this by simply saying “no” but they have been teasing DKs a few ways with off-hand dev commentary and the new Allied race starting weapons - I would not be suprised if the revised DKs get 2 handed Frost back as we get a better picture of what classes will look like in Shadowlands.
If they just allow people to use 2h, the only content that they would be able to get into is if they overly gear it in terms of ilvl, or the group doesnt care if they carry. While the base damage would be the same with the same gear with haste/crit weapons, 15% increased frost damage is a huge difference.
Should be fine is the thing. Transmog “should be” fine if all that people want is a certain look, but it isnt.
If people are going to whine anyways, then why even bother wasting your time lifting weapon restrictions or really doing anything other than just make the spec you want to make as long as it functions which Frost does even if I do think there are problems with things like having to build crit to get access to a guaranteed crit which I think is absolutely dumb design.
The new dk weapons were people trolling themselves, seeing something and just running with it. I called it long ago that they werent done, 1h weapons were coming, and the different colors were just transmog options.
Blizzard has stated there will be no “major” changes. So it would look like the core of the specs are at least going to be the same so you can pretty well bet a split in the spec isnt going to return if they did do this 2h return. They could just allow transmog, or lift weapon restrictions but again you have to look at why they removed hybrid specs, they didnt want people to go half and half into specs nerfing themselves. This happened back in cata and they even talked about it at one point that they didnt want newer players to nerf themselves and act as a kind of guide in the direction of getting to the best spec. Links from that long ago are mostly broken and dont work though.
They are probably going to work on the covenant system, fix bugs, possibly do minor changes to classes with the shifting of damage to the core build of specs, remove or change bad talents (possibly replace them with azerite traits people used), and then do what else they showed of it being basically a visual expansion.
Blizzard has acknowledged that the 2h people have been heard. They would have known it in BFA beta because people were trying to make it work somewhat and they shut it down so they know people want it.
I can safely say that in pugs people wont take a 2h dk if just weapon restrictions were lifted. Negative feedback spreads faster than anything else. So again unless you completely outgear what you are trying to do, or are running with a group that you dont care about, or you make your own group, people are just going to complain about not getting invited. Just look at the icecap build and people refusing to bring that build due to the frostwhelps. Granted its on the dk to point their character in the direction it wouldnt pull other stuff, people just dont want to deal with it.
Some people might be ok with it, but you are not the entire 2h dk community and you have to look at how people actually act as as a whole.
I would say its an identical scenario as Drain Soul which is, or at the very least was up until now in this expansion, was a dps loss over taking no talent at all. While people were fine playing with it, there are people saying that it should be buffed so its not a dps loss. Its a valid argument too. So just assume 2h is returned, its doing 15% less frost damage on all damage sources outside of obliterate. There are going to be people that say “so I cant use 2h because its a dps loss thanks Blizzard, fix this now!” In fact I can almost, with 100% certainty, say that it would happen.
its like saying pugs will not take people with "wrong " talents, because they are not optional
people could always change weapons to go for pugs or other hardcore play styles like gladiator and mythic raider
but to other people, especially the ones who don’t do mythics and only do lfr and play in random bgs/world pvp who cares? people just want the option, no matter if it will go behind DW, just like sometimes they pick “wrong” talents or “wrong” specs, like people said, its not your concern what they intend to do, and since you are not the raid leader, it matters even less
Do you think you might be exaggerating a bit? I want to address point by point because reflecting back I think a wall of text might be a bit much.
First; I think in the end 2 handed frost will still get groups; sure they likely wont be bleeding edge - but your still seeing Ilvl 400 people getting into mythic +7 or greater despite the fact. I do not think the playerbase is that hardcore - and even if it was; guilds and friends exist and we all at some point have had under-performers in a group and still succeeded.
I considered Transmog; the problem is that in the end your living a obvious lie. Mechanically Transmog is the easiest solution but I think Transmog is like the people using skin hacks to look like they are carrying Frostmourne or that they are the lichking due to a costume. Your just lying to yourself and I think it is one the 2 handed revivalists would not believe.
I think the foregone conclusion is just a personal preference; some people are pessimistic. also Frost itself does function - but as you said “make the spec you want to make” which is what those people are trying to do.
I disagree - I suspect blizzard is far from done with Death knights; if the “visions of asset swaps” patch is any indicator then I suspect we are seeing some work in progress (Some DKs not having DK voices for example) leads me to believe there is DK stuff still in dev passes that has not been tested nor done yet. Furthermore the 4 2 handers does suggest hope for 2 handed frost users because it strikes me as odd - and doing work that shouldn’t be needed (also its weird you only get the 1 skin - unlike other quests which give you all the skins when you make such a 1 time choice). The idea of DK fire spec was a fun distraction though.
Did Blizzard say that? I would like to see that quote as I am missing the context. As for fixing 2 handed Frost - I think it would be fairly simple (this is me pondering and should not be taken as a authoritative answer) Lift the weapon limits and create a Runeforge for 2 handed Frost - limit it to 2 handed and have it effect frost damage (this prevents non-frost from using it) and use it to tweak 2 handed to your hearts content if you feel so inclined).
Hybrid specs were never going to last; but remember that in some cases those specs because new specs entirely.
I agree on most points but I strongly disagree class changes will be “minor” if no other reason then the fact the Azerite system and essences going away is going to wreck some specs performance; but thats us arguing semantics on the word minor.
Sorry for the wall of text Kelliste and what it looks like is a stack tackle; but I think some of them are generally being “nice”? I mean everyone is trying to be heard and it seems there are atleast a few 2 handed revivalists in disagreement with you - but your most often their vocal opponent so it does look like a dog-pile
Those people who play in random bgs and world pvp will be at a major disadvantage and will just complain on the forums. Its not like it will be like 3% behind or something. In cata when they introduced MotFW it was still around 10% behind.
so you are assuming what people will do, how ironic
regardless, what it will matter? people complain all the time about everything, why do you care? as far i know you are not the one who work on this department in blizzard
its like saying they should remove sub-optimal specs and the other talents because people will complain they are behind, thats nonsense
people still use garbage talents anyway, people still play garbage spec/classes anyway, people would still play the 2H even behind DW, but apparently they should not do it, because people would “complain on forums” and that would hurt you somehow
Few hundred thousand play DK, the 2h posts have what, just over 200 likes on the op between both? That isn’t most, it’s a percent of a percent. We’d need an actual pole to determine this.
Same thing Unholy deals with, if you want to use one wep you get one forge or enchant. Same as my rogue/dh, one wep one chant.
The hybrids that worked were actually better than the pure options in the same spec, they nerfed hybrids because they wanted to force people into going fully into one tree. The design department didn’t like that half or all of some trees were viewed as ‘worthless’ so they buffed/redesigned the final talents and nerfed hybrids.
I honestly could’t care less if people don’t get invited to something for bringing the worst spec. Your posts really read like you want more subversive hand holding from the development team. One thing Blizzard has made abundantly clear is that they can go def to complaints when they want to.
People make choices and there are consequences, the point shouldn’t be to ‘save’ people from their decisions. Freedom.
Unholy doesn’t have a 2nd rune forge, no spec in the game can have two enchants on a wep so I’m not sure why you’re locked on this idea. If they wanted 2h to have the same frost damage they could buff mastery for 2h in several ways.
One would be just a flat increase to bring the frost damage increase to the same level in lieu of the enchant.
The other way to buff mastery would be to add Armor Penetration in addition to frost damage for those meaty 2h hits.
There are several specs that have Mastery affecting several things, same as crit and haste.
I like DW, however if the dev team can shoehorn 2h in without affecting dw frost why not?
… I’ve only got one Warcraft emote to use in response to that…