So, quick question, what happened when Tirion charged at Arthas?
Also did I get mandela’d or is this what Frostmourne looks like?
https://i.imgur.com/Z6dRDtv.jpg
I’d also like to know what “frost things” the toothpicks did. All I can recall are dumb floating swords.
In the Icecrown Citadel raid deck, Frostmourne has a “Harvest Soul” ability. When it deals fatal damage to an opposing ally, its attack power increases by 1 and it deals 2 frost damage to each opposing hero.
In Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, Arthas is able to wield the runeblade almost effortlessly, despite its size and weight. It slices through most opponents with minimal resistance, and shatters most weapons it comes in contact with. Those slain by Frostmourne have their souls drawn into the weapon.
Its greatest challenge was clashing with the legendary elven blade, [Felo’melorn], which the sin’dorei scion Prince Kael’thas had reforged to combat Frostmourne. Though able to put up a defense against Frostmourne’s merciless onslaught, its fiery origins proving a good counter to the icy runeblade, Kael’thas ultimately abandoned the battle, leaving Frostmourne undefeated.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frostmourne
Thassarian being the only valid DW DK in the game you can find, does not validate that frost is meant to be primarily DW. It does not change the fact that the entirety of Archeus Hold having 0 NPCs with 1 Handers and all of them having 2H weaponry means that even Blizzard thinks our class fantasy is 2H.
Darrion dual-wielded for the majority of Wrath front and center as our leader, Marwyn in the Halls of Reflection dual-wields, and there’s another NPC in Legion Acherus (name escapes me) who walks around dual-wielding. Just off the top of my head.
Frost design from Wrath to BfA has been primarily that of dual-wield. There is no debating that the only tree with any dual-wield talents was meant to use them, or that the synergy of the spec heavily favored dual-wielding. Two-handed usage wasn’t a supported design for Frost until Cataclysm.
And yet they made an entire spec based around dual-wield, and multiple NPCs doing so as well. Weird.
And then ICC hit and he’s never done it again, because it isn’t our class fantasy.
Thank you, Kelliste, this is one example that is absolutely correct. Meanwhile Falric has a shield.
I’m not even sure class fantasy is relevant since it’s had the option before. Warrior should get single minded fury back too, just more options for players in general. It worked in cata when we were locked into talent trees for x points, why can’t it work now in the simpler presumably easier to balance system.
Don’t missunderstand me. While dual wield has literally never been our class fantasy, I don’t think that if someone erroneously thinks it’s good they should be denied it. I just don’t think that it should be considered a main stay of Death Knights.
https://imgur.com/a/JqdpX?
After all, this is the sword we got screwed out of using because of that kind of thinking.
Just start using the only reason you guys can fall back on. You like the looks of 2H more. That is all you can point to and not be disproven.
What does it matter? 2H was never THAT far behind DW. Even if it was more than 4-5% behind in raiding, it was often ahead in PVP and still holds no bearing over how you play your game. If your argument for something to stay/return to the game is that it performs top tier, i guess we got some bad news for feral druids.
Just keep dual-wielding, whats the issue?
The mindset that if a setup isn’t optimal it isn’t worth Dev support is such nonsense. As long as the 2H Frost build is reasonably balanced to DW Frost in PVE (as it would likely be equal or even better than DW in PVP due to burst), it’s fine.
Contrary to what some people may think, many people don’t play WoW to be super elite raiders or PVPers. I logged on to relax, have fun and take my mind off real world things. I didn’t sit at my desk mumbling under my breath over a DPS discrepancy of 3-4%. I enjoyed 2H Frost, so I paid a monthly subscription and played it. Once Legion hit and Blizzard removed 2H Frost, I bounced between Ret Paladins and Arms Warriors, got bored and quit. I have barely touched by DK since the release of Legion (prior to which my DK was my main class).
It’s just bad business remove a class/weapon build I have enjoyed for years for no logical reason other than catering to the PVE elitist crowds who freak out if a spec is a few percentages better at PVE than another. I enjoyed the astetics, feel and lore of 2H Frost. DW Frost feels like a lackluster Rogue… If I wanted to play a Rogue, I would play a Rogue.
If it could be reasonably balanced, it wouldn’t have been removed in the first place, and we wouldn’t be here arguing against it. That’s kind of the whole point that we’ve been making - that it almost never was reasonably balanced, that it was usually a balancing nightmare, and the very nature of what’s being asked for isn’t at all easy to get into that reasonable balance range. 3-4% was never the percentage we were worried about, it was always a much larger difference in performance.
It’s also not a fair implication to make that just because you are not as concerned with balance, that the whole idea is less important. Competitive play is a huge core of WoW, and that necessitates balance between the choices that are available and supported. Even when you’re just playing for fun, it’s certainly less fun if you aren’t pulling your weight like everyone else, or you don’t feel you’re having the impact that you should. I think it’s almost universally true that everyone wants to contribute somewhat equally.
The hyperbole of this statement aside, it’s also bad business to not properly balance a multiplayer game. If there’s a specific mechanic preventing you from doing that, much less actually causing the imbalance, you don’t keep it around just for sentimental value.
How come there are entire specs under performing by as bad as 10-15% in eternal palace? That’s not including talent builds within those specs which would set them even farther behind. What would be any different if they brought back old options like single minded fury and frost 2H? Theyd be doing just as well as a feral druid who took all passives in the current tier, as a worst case scenario. The levels of bad balance you speak of already exist.
Players which do content at the highest level would still sim every last detail and take their optimal build to play the game how they enjoy. The rest would take the build they want to and play the game how they enjoy, but nothing would change.
My statement isn’t hyperbole. I literally stopped playing after I was prevented from playing the class/weapon setup that I played for years, that is bad for business - literally, not in a hyperbolic sense. Allowing people to use 2H weapons as frost did not cause an “imbalance.” It was just sub-optimal at the top tiers of the game. I don’t care about being hyper-optimal. I play to have fun, not to be the best in the world at something and not for “sentimental value.” I enjoyed 2h Frost. Your response proves my entire point.
So since parts of class balance are already in a poor state, you want to advocate that Frost be added to that list. This is a beggar’s argument, and not a rational one. No one should be advocating that design be worse just because others are currently bad. You’re asking for Frost to be subjected to this poor state regardless of its current players because you don’t have what you want. This is purely selfish.
It’s not at all logical to argue that nothing would change when what you’re asking for would fundamentally change the spec to attempt to serve two separate functions again. Many things would change, and Frost would suffer. We already know this.
The specific aspect of your post that you’re responding to here isn’t what I quoted, or responded to by calling it hyperbole. I’ll quote it again for clarity, but it was absolutely hyperbole that you engaged in in trying to saying that any concern for balance was only from “elitists” who “freak out over a few percentages.” That hasn’t been the argument here at all, and it doesn’t reflect reality.
My point wasn’t to add to the muddle of under-performing classes. I’m not advocating that Frost be added to a list of nearly-unusable specs. My point is, why should 2H not be brought back because you claim it to have been so bad when it existed, when we currently have a game that worse specs exist far more regularly.
Does this mean Arcane, Feral and Enhancement aren’t long for the world? Should they just be removed too? Or because people enjoy them, and people make post after post trying to get them re-balanced (or in this case, re-implemented) maybe some effort should be made to try and make it work, for the sake of the players.
As far as nothing changing, if DW is always dominant because 2H was so poorly balanced, what would change? It’s not serving 2 separate functions like you claimed because literally the only change is the aesthetic and the damage of 2 of your abilities, plus white swings. You said many things would change and Frost would suffer, I’d like to know what you think would change.
Respectfully disagree, still not hyperbole. The top tier, elitist jerk (whatever you want to call them… the people that simcraft things and read up on that kind of data) PVE crowd are generally the ones that complain about things like a 2H Frost DK spec being pointless because it under performs in DPS to a DW Frost DK spec by a few percentages.
My point is/was - Not everyone cares about optimal specs. Some people just want to log on and have fun with a sub-optimal setup. What wrong with allowing people to do that. How does that change how you play the game?
The 2H playstyle of the game was completely different than the DW Frost one. So no, you had different stat priorities and only had to have 1 Weapon rather than 2. Also swapping specs when you have the weapon needed for all specs. Frost was originally the very first tank spec before they introduced it as a DPS spec, it was not DW until they changed the trees. Furthermore in classic you could play 2h Fury in PvP and it outshined DW fury all day. Just because Frost had 2 talents you could spec into for Wotlk, does not mean it was a DW spec.
Slight correction.
All of the specs were tank/dps specs. Dual spec hadn’t been introduced yet.
Frost was a highly popular spec as a tank. By the end of Wrath, blood was the popular tank spec. Mid way through Wrath I think Dual spec was released, it screwed with the DK advantage of being able to do both well in raids.
It was in Cata that blood became the official tank spec.
That is neither reality, or the point we’re arguing. If it were only a few percentage points, that would be considered fairly balanced. If that had been possible or actually the situation then we wouldn’t be here now. Yet at the end of WoD the difference between the two playstyles was something in the neighborhood of +20%, and the 2H Frost players were the ones concerned with balance because they were being rejected or laughed out of groups, just as they were concerned about it in SoO, and ToT, and Firelands, etc. and came to these very forums for answers about why. It is not just your scapegoat “elitists” who care about balance.
No one is denying that balance isn’t a concern for everyone, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t a core part of the game to others, or that we should disregard balance altogether. I would not say that implementing an intentionally sub-optimal option is fair or ethical to the players - fully support and balance it, or don’t do it at all. Blizzard chose the latter. It also absolutely affects how I and others play the game, because as we’ve pointed out numerous times the sub-specs were intertwined on the base level, and that heavily complicated the balancing process making it a nightmare for the three expansions that the two coexisted. This is a very blatant point we’ve made again, and again.
Armor pen for life.