Hello!
This 15secs penalty per death is destroying all the fun in current M+ season.
It is very demotivating and almost impossible to do anything from the range of 9-10 without a proper stable team and communication.
Pugs are at the worse state ever.
Dungeons are ok, with decent mechanics, not hard, not super easy. Properly balanced I think after the latest changes. But in order for people to get their hands in Mythic rewards from vault, they really have to sweat it or to be part of a team willing to keep pushing those keys.
On the one hand I’m happy about the mythic reward, but I do cry about the effort that I will have to put on my alts to get to a similar level in comparison to how it was in the past.
Note that I am not even thinking to wanting to push any higher than 10s this season. Possibly only up to 11s for rating purposes so I can get invited into 10s.
You have to revert the 15s penalty back to 5s.
That kind of skill is not around for us to enjoy in pugs.
Thanks for reading.
14 Likes
I think it’s fair that levels that reward mythic track crest/gear like 9-10s feel comparable in term of difficulty to what mythic raids are which I think they currently do feel like. I like that like mythic raiding the difficulty does encourage people to build reliable groups to clear them.
For me the +10 tuning has been something I really like about current season with combining fort/tyr which makes dungeon more interesting as when it wasn’t tyranical bosses just fell over and when it wasn’t fort trash just fell over and it means I can use the same route every week.
The lower levels tho as they are competing with delves don’t really feel rewarding as much so I feel they could be tuned down.
I like the concept of challenger’s peril but like you said it is a bit more punishing toward pugs. Which to some point a tradeoff could be to switch to instead of losing time the key simply depletes after 10-15 deaths which would still force you to play the dungeon well but wouldn’t make the few deaths here and there as punishing.
I do like that challenger’s peril make it so you can’t really time keys with 20+ deaths which was something that happened a decent bit in DF, it didn’t feel like I earned “timing” a key when that happened but it still happened.
I do agree with what you say but I also see a lot of players getting discouraged by this.
1 Like
Coming back to this matter.
I really do not understand why you are trying to “force” us all to become better players.
More issues I experience and I dislike at the current season:
- Still the 15secs is a severe punishment for the majority of the playerbase.
- The way stuns and interrupts work. If you stun and people waste their interrupt, the mobs will just recast after the stun. This means that if you don’t have an organized group with stuns and interrupts calling, you’re doomed to fail in most scenarios.
- Nerfing specs. This is very demotiving. So when some people enjoy their game, you drive them away from their spec by nerfing it to the ground and by taking away something that makes them enjoy. Buffing is ok as you will give players the chance to compete, and small nerfing or some modifications in certain overpowered things might make sense. But what is happening with almost every enjoyable situation now feels like punishing anyone who enjoys a good spec.
- Compositions. This is still problematic despite your efforts. In mythic+ it is still specific specs that work above 12. Why? I do not want to play a specific spec to be able to play with my cool friends. So I’m forced to either abandon what I like or to be forced to be happy with 10s. Why?
I have a feeling that the situation is very bad regarding how players feel with the current M+ season.
Let me know of your thoughts and thanks for reading.
6 Likes
Another one of my thoughts is about key depletion.
Why are keys getting depleted reducing their levels instead of remaining the same. I would like to know the reasoning behind it.
Let’s say that you get into an 11 and you time it. You get a 12, you get into the 12 and you fail it because the x player failed, or because the team comp was wrong, or because someone dced, or god knows why. You get another 11 that you have to go through to be able to progress to another 12. Then you get that new 12 depleted again for another reason or the same reason as the previous one. You have to go again through another 11 to prove that you can do 11s and the circle is vicious like that.
So why?
5 Likes
There’s 2 parts to this I think. A fundamental aspect of how rewards work (or should work) is that doing harder content gives better loot, I really don’t think this should be controversial. So with that said, the 2 parts:
- If content is tuned easier and gearing is slower, that means there’s more room for people to outgear content over time. This means that they don’t get stuck, because they’ll get a bit of extra gear next week that might push them to the next boss kill/key level. This in turn gives them access to better gear, which continues this feedback loop of gradually doing harder content, even if you don’t increase in skill.
- Having an incentive to play for more of the season is a great way of “tricking” people into passively improving, because it’s really hard to not get at least a little bit better purely due to more time spent over time.
You can’t just buff specs, again there’s 2 main reasons.
- Power creep. If all you do is buff specs, you’re also effectively nerfing all content in the game. That’s bad.
- Risk of getting it wrong. Let’s take the current state of balance as an example, where the 2 shaman DPS specs are clearly the best and not by a small margin. You can either nerf 2 specs down to the level of the others, or you can buff 23 (I think?) other DPS specs up to their level. The odds of getting the nerf numbers right so the 2 shaman specs land among the 23 others (which are decently balanced, all things considered) are much better than the odds of buffing the other 23 specs up to the level of the shaman specs without accidentally ending up with a different set of specs that’s massively ahead of the pack.
You’re not. You can go much higher than that as any spec, I’d even argue you can get the 0.1% title as any spec in the game if you really want to. Will it be harder? Yeah, absolutely, but that’s inevitable with 39 specs and infinitely scaling content. They should also do better when balancing, but there’s also a limit to that.
There’s a bunch of reasons.
- If somebody gets lucky and 3 chests a Dawnbreaker 10 (incredibly easy to do), they have a +13 key. With depletion, they’ll be back to key levels they actually belong in soon enough. Without depletion, they’ll forever be terrorizing group finder with a key level that they’re not good enough for. They’ll likely even luck into timing it eventually, pushing the problem to even higher keys.
- If keys don’t deplete, routes/pulls get much riskier, because there’s no real cost to doing so. This causes a few problems of its own.
– It turns key pushing into even more of a time = score game than it already is, rather than skill = score. That’s because with more time, you can attempt the risky route more times, and all you need to do is get it right (or get lucky) once.
– The above will also cause key levels to go higher than now, through brute force alone.
– Higher key levels leads to meta being enforced even more strictly than now, because even minor differences between specs matter a lot more the higher you go.
Could it be a little more forgiving, like getting 2 attempts or something? Sure. Infinite attempts is definitely not reasonable, though.
2 Likes
You are forced to run the higher possible rewarding mode if you’re part of a serious or semiserious guild. Either you like it or not doing mythic+.
And if you are one of the unlucky specs, rip, that’s your mistake and you should reroll.
Go find a group if you’re feral.
Which you can do as quite literally any spec. Struggling with weekly keys is entirely a player issue, not a spec issue. Especially because the specs that are good at weekly keys are not always the same as the ones that are good in the highest keys. See: Shadow for most of DF. Absolute trashcan spec in weekly keys, unbeatable god king of the universe in title keys.
There’s also 139 Ferals above 3k, ~7 in title range, which is pretty solid for a spec that has basically never been popular.
1 Like
That is far from the truth. Disc priest are getting insta invited. Resto druids are not. Balance druids insta invited, Feral are not. The same comparisons can go forever. Also, because I do play multiple characters, I can tell you my own performance experiences. Tanking with my DH with 632 item level is far harder than tanking with my Warrior with 621 in 10s. There is no comparison in the difficulty between the two. The same I can tell for when I’m healing with my Resto druid with 630 item level. I literally have to suffer and can barely do something to save a tight situation. With my 608 Holy Paladin though I do it with ease. Yes I can understand that I might be better with those specs or they might just suit me more. But the actual difference in mythic+ should be fixed.
Some specs might have a harder time but that doesn’t mean they can’t do the content with the appropriate item level. Classes that are better simply can do it even at a much more lower item level. While for sure balance has been a huge issue this season it still shouldn’t stop you from completing +10s when even on the worse specs they should be timeable with 610 gear when you can get much higher now before even stepping in them, with +8 even letting get 636 crafted gear.
You’re missing the point. The gap between the specs is so massive, and I’m not talking about just this season, as previous season we had 150 pages on raider.io with the same comp, resulting in a gap of 6 keystone levels between the optimal comp and the second optimal one. The gap is so big that results in a lot of people getting demotivated even trying to time 10s and quitting the game due to suffering, especially from what they suffered in the early patch days. Of course now with all the gearing is kinda easy to time 10s with decent players of whatever spec, but again, the case is that people dropped out of m+ massively this season due to the entire approach.
No spec is weak enough that +10s are actually a problem, and that’s where the rewards stop (unfortunately). If you can’t do +10s on a spec, that’s a you issue. We were doing them with like 610-615 ilevel week 2 of the season with whatever specs happened to be around. Since then they’ve nerfed the dungeons, overall mostly buffed specs, added 90 seconds to the timer and you have more gear.
Getting invited is not a game issue, it’s a people being dumb issue.
Obviously they should try to balance things better, but spec balance is something people hear their favorite streamer talk about and then they think it matters (or is the same) in their weekly keys.
3 Likes