11.1 Frost DK Feedback

[Khazak-zuljin]

Frost finally has some changes to comment on, but much of what I’m about to say relies on the points I wrote on the DK forum:

@Khazak-zuljin

The 11.1 PTR is here and, unfortunately, lacks Frost changes outside of the slap on the wrist for living Web Blades on Mythic Ansurek. I hoped that in the time between the patch notes and build, we’d get word on Frost changes that didn’t make the first notes. Without any changes to give feedback on, I will focus on this post on what I feel are Frost’s biggest problems going into the next season.

First, keeping with the format typically requested on the PTR forums, here is some context for this feedback. These points are written by someone who views the game primarily through high-end PvE, e.g., Cutting Edge raiding and +12 and up keystones. I do my best to incorporate feedback from a range of players, but I am biased towards the content I play. I write about Frost a lot, having written a self-hosted guide and now writing the Frost guide for Wowhead. I also maintain the APL for SimC/Raidbots. I’ve written about Frost for a long time and hope that by now I’ve learned to do it in a useful way.

Going into Season 2, Frost needs an answer to three problems, or it will fall back into its status as one of the least-played specs. It has no options to spec into boss damage, suffers from the worst throughput RNG in the game, and only provides practical team utility when the encounter allows Death Grip to be useful.

Frost’s lack of options for boss damage will be the spec’s most significant issue in raids for the rest of the expansion. Frost excels in the opening weeks of the tier when add cleave is valuable, but falls off when gear and nerfs make adds a trivial concern for raid teams. Once add damage is no longer necessary, Frost becomes a mediocre spec. It cannot be tuned for decent single-target damage without increasing its AoE damage. Every single ability we use has an AoE component. Deathbringer, Arctic Assault, and Icy Death Torrent churn out abundances of free cleave for us. These abilities bring more cleave than even Breath of Sindragosa, inverting a long-running standard of Breath being the premier cooldown for cleaving off a priority target. For Frost to have a chance to be healthy, it needs knobs that only affect its single-target output. Obliterate can no longer be this knob as it had been for so long. Between Cleaving Strikes and Arctic Assault, it is now the one size fits all button. And I do not think it can lose these power-ups without alienating players. Frost Strike could be tuned up, but this course has a balancing act to pull off. It needs a sizeable buff to overcome other builds that can take Stoneskin Gargoyle on their weapons instead of Razorice. However, substantial buffs come with a significant risk that Shattered Frost will run away with free cleave. Another option could be to have BoS do more damage if it only hits one target.

More on Breath falling behind

Breath’s situation has gotten so bad that Breath of Sindragosa’s damage is only 7-12% of our overall damage, putting it behind Obliterate, IDT, Reaper’s Mark, and Exterminate in our damage breakdowns. Now, BoS offers some additional value beyond its raw damage in rapidly regenerating Runes to let us use more Killing Machine procs and detonating Reaper’s Mark quickly to fit our Exterminates in our cooldown window. However, these effects happen early in the Breath window. We are accustomed to squeezing as much as possible out of Breath, and indeed, having as many ticks as possible is better. But carefully optimizing your rotation to yield the maximum duration possible offers paltry gains compared to simply getting lucky with Reaper’s Mark. It is fundamentally wrong that the cooldown that should offer the most skill expression is instead relegated to the back seat so abilities that take little to no thought can drive.

To illustrate the point, compare the opening minute from this log from 8.3 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/cZwfJFDM9XCVxR1r?fight=2&type=damage-done&source=21&start=1355675&end=1416544 to an Ansurek log I pulled from the middle of the top 100 https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2VH9QkdX14yL8Bqt?fight=9&type=damage-done&source=17&translate=true&start=1993779&end=2055891. One that did quite well on the opening Breath and held it for 31 seconds in a fast, movement heavy phase. Between the two, the BFA log offers much more transparent feedback on what the game rewards. The TWW log is not so clear.

Frost’s other pressing issue is the giant variance it sees based on procs. Frost usually sees more variance due to its core mechanics, like Killing Machine and Runic Empowerment, working off random rolls. It is far worse than ever with Deathbringer Frost, our most-played Hero Talent (and will continue to be without significant changes to Riders). Looking at the Patchwerk sim stack, Frost clocks in with a coefficient of variance (a way to express ) of 7.6%. It is over two points higher than Outlaw Rogue, the spec with an actual gambling fantasy. Exterminate having a random chance to proc another full-power Reaper’s Mark feels awful. Players experience huge damage swings based on whether the Exterminate slot machine pays out. It obscures skill expression, leaving players wondering if they did well or just happened to proc 3 times. Icy Death Torrent gives us loads of pad damage that we have little influence over beyond pointing toward the targets and crossing our fingers. It would feel okay if it were a moderate amount of free damage, but IDT is one of our top sources of throughput, outpacing things like Remorseless Winter. Who cares if you pay attention to rolling your Gathering Storm stacks when you’ll get more damage from auto-attacking?

Lastly, it is time again to bring up Frost’s lack of raid buff. I get that in an ideal world, Death Grip and Anti-Magic Zone would be serious factors that make people want DKs. But they aren’t. Sometimes, we can make a fight easier by gripping an enemy, but this happens in one fight per tier at most. AMZ is a fine button, but I can’t remember when someone said they wanted a DK specifically for AMZ after Castle Nathria. It is a nice thing to have if you have a DK on the team, and that is it. It’s another Rallying Cry or Darkness, as long as your team can stand together when heavy magic damage hits. Planning a comp around raid buffs is not fun for anyone, and it is especially not fun to be the most expendable member of the group simply because everyone else makes the group better just for being there.

With that out of the way, onto the changes.

@Linxy

DEATH KNIGHT

• Frost
  • Obliterate damage increased by 20%.
  • Frost Strike damage increased by 15%.
  • Rime now increases the damage of Howling Blast by 275% (was 225%).
  • Breath of Sindragosa damage increased by 10%.
  • Liberation of Undermine 4-set bonus – Murderous Frenzy now increases Mastery by 12% for 6 seconds instead of Haste.

Changing the set to give Mastery is nice. I can think of some possible reasons why it gave Haste before, but Frost generally doesn’t care too much about Haste, and I think many players would think something is wrong with the set giving Haste because it’s not one of our top 2 secondary stats.

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but I feel apprehensive about being buffed. Frost Strike, Obliterate, and Breath of Sindragosa went through multiple rounds of nerfs and buffs in Season 1. Each time, it felt like a quick response to community outcry. I fear that will happen again in Season 2. These buffs feel aimed at Frost (and other melee specs) performing poorly in the Liberation of Undermine. However, buffing these abilities also means buffing Frost’s AoE output. As covered in my lengthier feedback, Frost has no options for pure single-target damage. Every ability has a cleave component. There is a very real risk buffing core abilities by double digits will result in Frost dominating the key meta and getting nerfed again in response to the community feedback.

Frost will not get any attention to fix its core issues this cycle, but it would be nice to be at least left in a stable position when the season launches, instead of seeing the same abilities nerfed and buffed again. Free cleave through Cleaving Strikes and Shattered Frost will be extremely strong with these buffs. Shattered Frost has a built-in tuning knob, and Cleaving Strikes could have a solid tuning knob if the cleaved Obliterates did reduced damage. I’m not sure what the best solution here is, but I see a pattern about to play out again.

[Lploy-crusader-strike]

I understand that both Frost and Unholy’s recent buffs don’t address their core issues, which have been plaguing them for a long time. However, at this point, we have two realistic options:

1. Accept this band-aid fix and see some immediate representation at the 11.1 launch.
2. Revert the recent buffs and hope the devs implement the “right” changes before 11.1—and that they actually work.

I’m choosing option 1 every time.

I agree with the points made in this post, but it’s more realistic to expect these changes in 11.1.5, 11.2, or even 12.0.

[Khazak-zuljin]

It’s been clear for a few weeks that they weren’t getting bigger changes. But there is a third option. Not revert the buffs, but make sure the buffs aren’t overdone. As they are applied now, there is a real risk they will cause another round of nerfs later. When Blizzard reworked Deathbringer, it wasn’t tuned at all and that prompted a last-minute panic nerf that ended up overnerfing the spec. I’m hoping that early feedback will be able to prevent another last-minute nerf that leaves no one feeling good.

[Magnarok-amanthul (Magnarok)]

I don’t keep my finger on the pulse of death knight feedback really, but am I the only one who hates death and decay being a part of frost? The obliterate cleave is of course awesome. I just hate it being tied to that ability. It doesn’t feel frosty and i hate how restrictive it feels. I’d rather the cleave be tied to remorseless winter instead.