It’s both; having to press all of your different buttons every single pull wouldn’t sting as much if there weren’t so many of them and if buttons like blade flurry weren’t on the GCD.
For Outlaw, there are good changes, but I’m really disappointed that there is no change to fix the S&D or Blade Flurry problems. Remove S&D or at least add it’s cumulative extension back to Grand Melee. And BF needs to be off the GCD already especially now that BF needs to be used for single target.
This mostly. You can’t press buttons fast enough with the insane amount of CP generation the spec carries.
I do have a few questions though:
- Does Crackshot synergize with Summarily Dispatched?
- Does Killing Spree still proc weapon enchants?
- Does Swift Slasher take into consideration Haste procs and item buffs?
Echoing disappointment that Slice and Dice still… exists.
Feels like Runes of Power - will it take 10 years to realize it doesn’t contribute to positive gameplay loops? If the concern is about having an extra set of max combo points now freed up in a rotation… then just adjust the damage down accordingly.
Outlaw rogue still feels a bit frantic in a negative way.
9 Likes
Most changes seem really lazy and the fact that SnD still exists as a button to press is mind blowing.
5 Likes
I started maining sub rogue at the beginning of this expansion. Just wanted to get that out there as my knowledge of the history of the class is limited, so perhaps this is how rogue used to play.
For AoE, I definitely notice I’m not getting dance as frequently but I am still able to push buttons for almost every global, so I didn’t mind this too much.
But holy smokes, for single target I feel like I could go 10 seconds without pressing a single attack sometimes to let my energy regen. (I actually tested this, its about 8-10 seconds to fill the bar. Which to be fair might be helped by haste, but at a sacrifice to your other damage.) Seal fate being moved to assassination only, the increased energy cost, and the nerf to deepening shadows is a few too many imo for the class to feel good. Using Shadowcraft with inevitability has helped this a bit, but it’s still too much downtime. (For me)
Overall, if you don’t mind downtime, you’ll probably be ok with it. But I was a huge fan of just spamming my abilities. I didn’t really see a problem with that flat damage profile.
I’ll probably end up switching classes due to it. Just thought I’d give my thoughts for any like minded sub rogues.
All of these changes are genuinely terrible.
They’re almost all dps losses for every change, and NONE of the requested QOL was provided.
4 Likes
“Relax bro, it’s only ptr” 
2 Likes
People when they realize all these class changes only make the classes worse, and they still haven’t nerfed ret more.
2 Likes
“Indiscriminate Carnage, with the current design, cannot be saved. All this talk of smart targetting, making it active but with a shorter CD just isn’t going to fix what is fundamentally a bad design.”
You say its bad design but give no reasons as to why its bad design. The previous problem with it was a 45 second cd and requires stealth to get the most out of it. The stealth requirement is still lame but pretty much nullified by the fact we can take shadow dance on the general tree without it being completely troll now, which also allows us to use vanish much more liberally. Its fine.
“Just make is so Crimson Tempest does some upfront damage and a bleed, enough to justify it even in ST, or at least to not be a DPS loss”
Why? You dont need to path to CT for anything single target related, why do you want to use it on single target? not a single rogue ive ever known has liked having to use CT on single target, theres no reason for it.
“Crimson Tempest spreads the Garrote and Rupture from your current target to 5/8 enemies in 10 yards, at 25%-50% their duration (subject to tuning).”
You talk about bad design they go on to say to rework a keystone so it requires you to put a point into something else on the other side of the tree to function.
“DTB does not need a nerf.”
Yes it does with the new tree, you have access now to kingsbane and DTB together and kingsbane is doing an insane amount of damage currently when paired with DTB, the nerf is fine.
“Arterial Precision needs to just AOE increase nature damage taken, and not bleeds. Instead, give us a Poison that increases bleed damage taken by the target.”
What? the majority of our aoe damage comes from bleeds, why would you want AP changed to nature damage(which is a very low portion of our aoe damage) instead of bleeds, that makes no sense, not to mention we already get the increased nature damage from improved shiv so i really dont get your take here.
“Shadow Dance has no place in the rogue general tree. Put Death From Above in it’s place, finisher which does the same as Envenom/Dispatch/Eviscerate and replaces them, but with a bit more damage and a travel component.”
Says who? With the new carnage it definitely does have a place, and it had a place with outlaw in both season 1 and season 2.
Death from above? really? thats what you want as a keystone instead? we already had death from above and it was removed and placed as a pvp talent for a reason, nobody used it.
“Sudden Demise should be 100% of mob remaining health, 200% in pvp only. If it is to be an Assa execute, at least make it an efficient one, not a crutch that still wastes damage.”
Starting to think you probably havn’t actually done any ptr testing at all, the node is already a solid execute at 200% especially when you consider its most likely going to be paired with Zoldyck Recipe and Arterial Precision(+10% from Sudden Demise first line of text) for 70% increased bleed damage. You cant just have assass rogues insta killing raid bosses and m+ mobs at 10% hp, that would be bad game design.
How is it a “crutch”? what do you even mean by that?
“Alacrity gating Deeper Stratagem / MFD is horrible, always was.”
for sub in aoe scenarios
generally horrible? not really
“ER really needs to go”
Your only good take.
“swap atrophic/numbing with cheat death/elusiveness”
Why? what purpose does this serve?
2 Likes
it’s bad design because it gates any meaningful AOE behind a CD. As long as this is the case, whether mobs die too fast or too slow, and Assa will never have a place in M+, as demonstrated by previous seasons. And by the feral druid, who, until Primal Wrath was implemented and got some love, was completely unrepresented.
And how many rogues have you even known? Enough to be statistically representative?
Anyway, the point is not to make it a required talent, but a viable one, if an assa rogue would like to play a bleed focused build.
If it makes you feel any better, you can have CT as a prerequisite to it
now this is the height of logic. “kingsbane does and insane amount of damage, so let’s nerf DTB”. Nerfind DTB has other implications, sustained AOE suffers, poisons in PVP suffer, etc. and all for what? so you can curb the ST burst of kingsbane, which could have been done by…tuning kingsbane.
the point s to separate the left and right side of the trees into talents that improve poisons, and talents that improve bleeds. Shiv is already overloaded as an utility that has to be used for dmg, this makes it so for a bleed playstyle, you can hold it for when you need to tranq.
SD has always been a sub ability. reliance on it for other specs only leads to button bloat. DFA was used for the entirety of WOD, until it was nerfed into the ground. As a capstone, if you don’t like it, or if the travel component is undesired in your situation, you can just not pick it.
i’m starting to think you don’t know what it does, exactly. you will not execute any raid bosses at 10%.
if the enemy is under 35% hp and your total bleed damage on it is say, 100, then the enemy has to have 50hp for you to execute it. this means that out of that 100 total bleed damage you have on the enemy, 50 is wasted. which makes it inefficient, you would never want to execute an enemy using bleeds. It is a crutch in the sense that if you play assa correctly, you will want to time you bleed expiry with when the enemy dies.
therefore, you would not refresh the bleeds if the enemy is about to day, as that would mean wasting damage.
with this talent you waste less damage. you may find further information on this in the class discord, under the pinned posts.
generally horrible to have stat talents gate useful ones, and serve as the single gate as well.
thank you
so you can skip it if you don’t need it or don’t want it. The middle point is the only one which can be skipped, if you take the other two, and still progress below, with the current pathing. it is the easiest solution without changing the pathing.
2 Likes
The new carnage isnt a cd anymore, its completely passive coming out of stealth and even if it was that still makes no sense. By meaningful i assume you mean good damage, pretty much every classes way of doing “meaningful” aoe is gated behind cds, thats how the game works.
Nobody wants to press CT on single target except you for whatever strange reason.
They gave CT more damage for the function its intended for and you want them to revert it and make it usable on single target instead of just not taking the node in single target … makes no sense man.
Nerfing DTB has no other implications outside of single target damage, which is nullified by kingsbane, it was either one or the other, and dtb was the better choice. In what way doing nerfing dtb make sustained aoe suffer? amp poison does not give you sustained aoe, dtb has nothing to do with aoe.
For what reason? whats the purpose of this? this is a new argument that had nothing to do with your take on AP. What playstyle? there is no playstyles man, bleeds are what do your aoe, both poisons and bleeds are baked into the class, there isnt a choice there thats just how the class plays. Also shiv utility is the last reason anybody invites a rogue to a group, literally the last thing on the list, its a damage cooldown on assass, who cares, you have 2 charges.
Reliance on it leads to button bloat? really? so having to press dance on other specs is button bloat, but replacing it with dfa that you also have to press isnt button bloat? where is the logic in that? “if you don’t like it, or if the travel component is undesired in your situation, you can just not pick it.” Doesn’t this literally just apply to shadow dance as well? you dont like you can just not pick it!
No man i know exactly what the talent does, you just dont understand that its strong as is, you cant have an execute in the game that can just passively insta kills targets without conditions, you can’t just have monk TOD passively on your bleeds. Tell me how it is inefficient if your sudden demise instantly kills a couple targets and saves time, vs the target living the full duration so you dont “waste” damage. Instantly killing targets is not inefficient, they are dead. You are asking them to double the damage on a keystone you havnt even played with yet. Get off ravenholdt that place is a cesspool of misinformation like most class discords.
Might wanna go check that ptr talent calculator again, you can skip it.
2 Likes
Real talk though. I understand rogues (atleast most of them) can’t play the way they want to, which I’m really talking about sub rogue. After testing things with my friend in a duel last night on ptr, why play a sub rogue and get upset that you can’t kill in a stun when you can just do that on assa while additionally parsing like its a m+ key by applying every poison and bleed possible just to instantly kill someone with sudden demise?
I’ve seen people compare it to warrior execute, and it… kinda is? The only problem I have with the ability is that unlike execute that cannot just straight up kill you through absorbs, sudden demise does not care and goes right through it. I had SoV up at 35% hp and died regardless. I hope thats just something they somehow missed or a bug because if its not then I have no idea how some classes are going to compete against such a powerful passive.
Also, if you don’t care about pvp, as I understand in sudden demises’ current state, the instant kill works in pve too? Wouldn’t that just massively imbalance pve comps and make everyone want to stack rogues for like 5 second pulls? I don’t even know what blizzard was thinking with this one lol
Demise is a very strange talent they added. I feel like they’re going to make it like Touch of Death where it says it’ll kill them, but in pvp itll just do a butt load of damage. Otherwise its the strongest and most real “execute” in the game that you cant prevent. Who knows when or if that’ll happen though with how slow blizzard is to make any real meaningful changes. Further interesting to know how that works on bosses in PvE. I’ll probably try PTR today/tomorrow, just have to import all my macros 
1 Like
I believe there’s a blue in the PTR forum that mentions this being a bug / oversight.
3 Likes
Not really. It’s based on how much an individual rogue’s bleed exceeds 200% hp, it wouldn’t really stack well at all. (Only the strongest rogue would realize the benefit)
When I first read the 10.2 changes I said man these sound amazing!
Now the patch is getting closer and they’re slowly walking it all back…
“Energy returned reduced to 5 energy.” (Was 6 energy)
“Now replicates 25% damage.” (Was 40%)
Random energy costs increased, Marked for Death removed from Restless blades. And lots more.
Probably keep seeing more reductions until we’re in the same boat of Outlaw and Assassination sucking for another season. I’ll believe they’re actually viable when I see it. They can’t balance Diablo 4 and they can’t balance this game. Zzzzzz
5 Likes
thank you for the detailed reply and for the conversation, but I will extricate myself from it.
this last point that you made, which I quoted, really convinced me that it’s not worth the time.
with the talent calculator in front of your eyes and you cannot see or understand a simple statement, what hope is there for anything else, really?
THIS^^^^ I hate how it feels. It’s intrusive in my gameplay. I stopped playing Rogue because of it (well partly). I don’t like juggling pointless abilities that could be easily reworked into something else that is FUN.
6 Likes
TBF, they did this with UH DK and it still wound up in a great place (at least for PvP). Maybe I’m just drinking some copium though