10.2 Mistweaver Monk Tierset Concerns

Classes Monk
1

So I want to preface this a bit because I do not think that our tierset is weak whatsoever. I think the opposite. Currently (as of September 14th) based off one of the top logs from testing I was able to calculate that the 2 and 4 set ended up being a 14.33% HPS increase which is definitely lovely but it did come at a pretty annoying price.

At the moment the 4 set (Chi Harmony) does not include the healing from some abilities in the Mistweaver kit. Due to the “restriction” on which abilities are able to feed into the 4 set and which are not; you are pigeon-holed into playing one build at the moment which a lot of people find frustrating and regressive. Ancient Teachings and Chi-ji are effectively dead on arrival as they have 0 interaction with the 4 set. Although I do not really mind Ancient Teachings being worse then Clouded Focus I do not want to see the build be neglected and completely left out from interacting with the 2 and 4 set.

My final concern comes from the shift in gameplay that is required to maximize the effectiveness of the 4 set. Previously we have had high overheal percentages due to the single target fixation of Soothing Mist and Vivify with Clouded Focus however, now with the tierset it has become a lot more degenerate. To maximize the effectiveness of the 4 set’s redistribution you want to funnel as much healing into a target which has Chi Harmony as possible. This results in an incredible amount of direct Vivify overheal that makes the spell really just feel like an AoE fodder spell rather than an actual life-saving, single target heal. Since Vivify cleaves through Invigorating Mists do not feed into the 4 set you are once again pigeon-holed into this playstyle to maximize the effectiveness. Access to spot healing is an issue which Clouded Focus Mistweaver definitely has however I feel like this shift in playstyle to accommodate the new tierset is very regressive and honestly boring.

Thank you for reading. :slight_smile:

18 Likes
2

Ancient Teachings and Awakened Faeline not interacting with the tier set MUST be a bug. It’s essentially going to make mistweaver more like other healers, which is certainly not going to make people play an already underplayed spec (and class):

4 Likes
3

Please submit a bug report about it.

4

It’s the PTR. Chances are AT and a few other abilities will be made to feed into it. PTR probably isn’t done baking yet.

Wouldn’t be surprised if they didn’t though as stated that they wanted to curb aoe healing and AT/FL is an extremely easy and and braindead way to get a ton of aoe/group healing.

Personally I hope they don’t let it feed into it. AT/FL can honestly sit in the corner for a season - it’s not the end of the world. Elitist tears are the best kind.

Shoot! I guess you will have to actually use the other abilities in the toolkit other than just FL/SCK/ChiJi

3 Likes
5

I’m confused, AT and Chi-Ji should work since the 4 set bonus is from all healing to targets with Chi Harmony. The only particular difficulty would be that AT isn’t targeted, but the splitting does make the chance higher.

6

According to Vohrr’s list: Env Breath from both celestials still feeds the Chi Harmonies. The extra effect/kick up of healing from Chi’Ji and the extra soo mists from Yu’Lon will not feed into chi harmonies though.

I wonder if Gust of Mists will be feeding into them…It wasn’t on Vohrr’s list. Guessing no if it wasn’t on the list and if Chi’Ji’s extra gusts are not feeding into them. Sadness.

I can kinda understand AT/FL not feeding into them as it might be much more healing from tier than intended if it was pumping too much into the chi harmonies? Hopefully they at least change it so that Gusts/mastery, Yu’Lon’s soomists, and Chi’ji’s kick up heals/gusts feed into them. ( possibly even EF )

Hoping Tear of the Morning and Dancing Mist’s Ren Mist procs also proc chi harmonies. Apparently these talents weren’t working on the PTR for LB ninja though so Im not sure if they do or not.

7

They wouldn’t because Tear of Morning and Dancing Mist do not actually cast a “new” Renewing Mist. The 2 set specifically says Initial Application. Whenever Tear of Morning or Dancing Mist duplicate a Renewing Mist they are not actually creating a new one if that makes sense.

As for AT/FL not feeding into the 4 set it’s just extremely bad for M+. You’re not really doing a whole lot of healing with your direct spells so losing 70% of your HPS into your 4 set basically shoots it which roundabouts back to you being better off playing highest ilvl/best stats as the tierset is pretty bad stat wise for now.

1 Like
8

Had my doubts they would. I was just saying I hope they let those extra ren mists proc chi harmony. There are other talents in the tree that also need help/buffs.

By " not working " I meant that those respective talents weren’t spreading renmists at all on the ptr when LB tested them in his video - so it wasn’t something they could test. My bad there on the wording :3

9

Meh those of us who run dont run AT/Fl and run CF do, so this might be a decent thing for people who don’t run fey line. The ST healing buffs combined with CF/TotM’s env mists cleaving to ren mist targets w/ chi harmonies could potentially help those talents a bit. ( part of why I hoped those above talents apply chi harmony on ren mist duplication, and hopefully gust also feeds into it )

I thought AT already pumped in FL/M+ so does it really need to be feeding into those chi cocoons? 14.33% hps already seems like alot for a tier bonus. no? I can imagine having 5 RenMists up W FL/AT is an immense amt of healing into the chi harmonies, which then could be popping for probably more healing than they intend the tier/combined abilities to do?

Seems they are putting more focus on ST healing with the healing changes they discussed on the ptr notes so I can possibly see how they would want to not add FL/AT into feeding it.

We can only wait and see what else comes our way I guess. They didnt even give us our own “feedback” thread in the PTR forum. So either they have more planned for us - or they forgot about us entirely.

10

Ok, but why are you deliberately excluding m+ players? The only people who don’t run AT/FL are raiders.

11

This isn’t true.

I ( and a few others ) have been running CF/Tears ( or cf/rm ) in m+. Was doing 20’s in s1 with them and they are very much viable for 16-24’s in s2 still. :slight_smile:

Please do go on though about how FL/AT are better for content a small majority of players push ( high m+ ). Dont really care, some of us just dont like AT/FL. It’ll just add to my point that these other talents should see some buffage/love. /shrug

3 Likes
12

Hey you’re free to run whatever you want to run, it’s your sub. Just please don’t ask the devs to make balance decisions around suboptimal choices.

4 Likes
13

I’d rather see both play styles be equally optimal in all content. I hate the AT/FL style and always play CF in both raid and keys. More talent choices is better.

8 Likes
14

This is a silly ask… one set up will always be numerically superior. It’s also true that 95% of the playerbase doesn’t play at a level where it even matters. At the level you play at, you could literally run whatever janked up talents you wanted and if you play well, you’d still clear the content.

1 Like
15

Maybe it is a silly ask, but I will ask for it all the same. Doesn’t hurt anything.

2 Likes
16

I really hope this is a bug as has been mentioned.
It would be really weird to not have AT/Awakened Faeline/ChiJi going into Chi Harmony.

Does anyone know if Chi Harmony will proc for the Rapid Diffusion ReMs?
As for the fact that Chi Harmony wont proc for Dancing Mists, I think this is a step in the wrong direction for monk raid healing design. Likewise, the decrease in the proc chance of Misty Peaks.

In terms of talent design there are clearly the following coupled interactions:
Rapid Diffusion / Dancing Mist / Rising Mist whose proc chance and duration values determine the “flow” of the number of ReMs at any given time that we can cleave heal from.

Additionally, the number of ReMs can proc Misty Peak, whose proc chance was severely nerfed in 10.2 (and should be reverted), and these Enveloping Mists have further coupled bonuses (Mist Wrap / Overflowing Mists / Mending Proliferation).

As of right now, they are basically destroying the ReMs that can “bubble up” from your main rotation due to RNG (Dancing Mist), when MW monks have been looking for more mechanics that interact with these ReM bonus procs. (Specifically looking for more engaging ways to get many ReMs for 1-2 Vivify or some other interaction that engages with small peaks of many ReMs)

The dev working on MW needs to understand that we have a limited number of ReMs that we can hard cast, and then we use our raid talents to create small windows of many ReMs to vivify cleave with our healing bonus effects; we are really looking for increased value in the talents Dancing Mist / Misty Peaks / Rapid Diffusion for raid. A good design is a low threshold number of ReMs and then when we do ramp windows (ex Enveloping Mist x3) we generate 6 more ReMs that are very short due to Rapid Diffusion. We extend these using Rising Mist to give more time for these ReMs to proc Misty Peaks, hopefully giving us a small 4-6s window where we can land 2-3 vivify cleaves with maximum number of ReM.

Then in M+, we dont need Rapid Diffusion for 1 of 2 reasons. Proper rising mist usage allows for ReMs on all 5 party members with perfect play, 4 with good play. But not everyone uses Rising Mist (Awakened Faeline + Invokers Delight for ex), and the ReM style changes from sustained uptime to windows of ReM for cleave healing. Its in these windows that Dancing Mist should be tuned to proc enough so that during my 10s window that I use my 3 ReMs, Dancing Mist should allow for Vivify to cleave 4 and if lucky/skilled(ex healing someone nearly full so ReM jumps and procs a new 1) → all 5 party members have ReM without Rising Mist.

Basically, it would be better for the MW dev to describe/understand the behavior of our ReMs using a few parameters to be better able to discuss MW talents and tier set bonuses objectively:
-B - base number of sustainable ReMs with and without Rising Mist
-A- number of ReMs in a Rapid Diffusion window with and without Rising Mist
-G - ReM growth rate (from Dancing Mists / Tear of Morning), this term is intentionally kept low by the dev team because the growth rate can grow out of hand; however they should step up the growth rate just a bit more than currently, as sustained ReM count is mostly dominated by Rapid Diffusion / Rising Mist and NOT from Dancing Mists or Tear of Morning (as neither of these effects produce more than a marginal number of new ReMs and because Rising Mist is so necessary for having a larger number of sustained ReMs. Tear of Morning was only viable when it could be taken alongside Rising Mist but Tear of Morning needs a significant growth rate buff or some way to extend the duration of ReMs)

It is not necessary for exact solutions but just approximations and to make a chart of ReM count with at least these 4 primary scenarios:
-M+ No Rising Mist: B~2 sustained ReM; A = [0,3]; G can be estimated by collected data as the average number of ReMs observed minus A minus B, essentially just using the data to see how many extra procs we get compared to how many we know are possible from base kit and rapid diffusion.
-M+ Rising Mist B~4-5 sustained ReM; A = [0,2];
-Raid No Rising Mist B~2 sustained ReM; A=[0,~6-8) Note: The value of A here depends on haste;
-Raid Rising Mist B~6-7 sustained ReM; A=[0,~8-10] Note: The value of A here depends on haste, how many Enveloping Mists + RSK before first Rapid Diffusions expire is finite;

Dev needs to really get a hold on what the “dynamic range” on ReM count should be.
Clearly in M+ it can only be 2-5 and then in raid it can spike depending on the duration of Rapid Mist / Rising mist. With the current growth rate on Dancing Mists and Tear of Morning, they contribute almost negligible numbers of ReMs in any realistic healing profile.

Currently, the ReM count is mostly dominated by Rising Mist and Rapid Diffusion and NOT from Dancing Mist / Tear of Morning. IMO, devs should really consider increase the growth rate of ReMs from Dancing Mist / Tear of Morning because many MW want a playstyle in raid where they can create small windows (just enough for 1-2 vivify) on 12-15 ReM targets through proper play. With the current tuning on these abilities, they rarely create new ReMs compared to Rapid Diffusion.

Also, it would be nice to see Rapid Diffusion increased to 8 seconds instead of 6 seconds to give a little bit longer of a window to build up ReMs and allow for less reliance on haste to fit EvMs into a tiny window to get the ReMs. Just some better ReM mechanics in general would be appreciated as the core concept of cleaving on them with Vivify is strong and its a game after all.

EDIT: Added edit to say that the diminishing returns on 5+ target vivify cleave is a sad change and invalidates a lot of this theorycrafting about having more than 5+ ReMs in raid (and hence why they are doing it. Simpler to just say ‘oh we max out at 5 targets in m+ and 5 targets before diminishing returns in raid’ and balance that rather than to make actually distinct playstyles and talents around a variety of ReM number depending on the content (2-5 in M+ and 5 with windows of 10+ in raid). I think its safe to say that a lot of us would rather have our healing come from the vivify cleave on 7+ targets in raid during a healing burst window rather than passive HoT from just having 7+ ReMs but only cleaving on 5 targets max. Anyways shrug

17

Banking large numbers of ReM on RNG is honestly not a great idea, if anything they should be making a more deterministic effect for ToM/DM while buffing the sustainable ReM counts overall.

This is the same change they made to Uplift for WoD, or at least similar enough (I’m not sure if this involves a healing cap as Uplift got)

18

Its good to have a mix of determinism and just the right amount of RNG. (Misty Peaks is great example of good RNG, feels really nice to land a vivify into the EVM proc)

The RNG values from Dancing Mist / Tear of Morning are too low, needs to be changed from 10% to 15-20%.
Also, they should buff Rapid Diffusion from 6 seconds to 8 seconds.

Finally, they should add an effect to Tear of Morning to make it competitive with Rising Mist but also unique.

Rising Mist serves well as a sustained HoT playstyle, combining Upwelling’s Essence Font duration increase and extending Rapid Diffusion ReMs for cleave

Tear of Morning requires actively casting Enveloping Mist multiple times, which interacts with Rapid Diffusion, but those ReMs do not last long enough to really benefit from the funnel healing from ToM, and you have to choose between EVM or Vivify Cleave during your healing moments, whereas with Rising Mist you can have both EVMs and ReMs rolling while vivify cleaving, ToM just cant keep up

19

as a huge clouded focus enjoyer and advocate, this is just silly. please don’t talk like playing CF in M+ is even comparable to FLS/AT build, because it isn’t. play what you want, but saying you use CF in M+ should come with an asterisk.

1 Like
20

I don’t think 2pce or 4pce are bugged.

I think they intentionally don’t work with AoE healing such as Invigorating Mists or EF or AT from Fistweaving.

I think the intent of the 2pce is buff direct healing on a single target only, which is what it does and doesn’t affect AT or Vivify cleave or SG on cleave targets or EF or FLS or any other AoE/split healing.

I think the 4pce would be incredibly OP if it was possible to charge up the Chi Harmony buff on multiple targets at once. At the moment it can be charged up with Vivify direct heal and SG direct heal but not their cleave healing components. Similarly, casting Enveloping on a Chi Harmony target charges it up but cleave healing through Tear of Morning does not.

The 2pce does not affect Healing Elixirs but Healing Elixir healing does get counted in the 4pce.

If the set bonuses were just bugged then I imagine heaps of things would randomly work or not work with one of the other but as it currently works it seems like a clear rule exists and that is that only 1 Chi Harmony can be charged at a time.

It’s a bit disappointing to see Fistweaving being ignored like this (if it isn’t a bug). Consistently critting 200k Vivifies and being able to crit 600k Lay on Hands SG’s on a target of my choice makes my Fistweaving feel like an afterthought that I just don’t need.

Funnily enough, Fistweaving in keys now feels like what Atonement for Discs felt like prior to 10.2; something you do when you don’t really need to heal. Now both of those have switched such that Atonement healing keys is how you do big healing and I don’t have to stop to triage heal and Fistweaving is now what I stop doing when I actually need to heal.

I was so ready to be able to spam SCK and charge up Chi Harmonies for huge burst healing from ReM’s expiring and being refreshed but I guess it’s just not on the cards.