10.1.5 Rogue Changes Released!

10.1.5 Rogue Changes:


Blizzard wants an end to the Rogues. Especially Assassination. NO ONE changes inc… Sad.


Stunning rework!


So basically it says: Go to Vanilla WoW.

Me: OK.

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No blind and caps. No blind into sap. CC is almost null across the board… kicks are almost of no consequence. This is honestly the worst I have ever seen WoW. At a fundamental level they have turned chess and CD trading into checkers and just doing pve dmg and pveing each other down. Effectively they are getting rid of counterplay and outplay potential.

At higher levels of play this makes the game incredibly stupid both to watch and play. Notice I said to WATCH as well.

Yeah as content creators we live off of outplay potential, essentially putting together highlights like SportsCenter does in sports. NO outplay potential, no highlights, no footage worth anything that anyone wants to see. Literally just tutorials and jokes. Thats it.

I mean you dont have to take my word for it. Ask Skill Capped if their numbers have went UP or DOWN with outplay potential being nerfed across the board. You can’t just reroll either. They are systematically removing counterplay. Its ALL classes being dumbed down.

I can notoriously predict the future. I am predicting your favorite pvp content creators quality of video goes down, there will be less content from them, and they will start to make other types of video besides pvp. It doesnt matter what class they play. Rogue or not. Its just Rogues live off of CC. A world of no CC, no point in playing especially rogues.

It’s not that you can’t kill either dont get me wrong, its that there is no skill involved in pveing each other down. Once you learn how to PvP you wont want or need to watch it or want to play it for that matter.

All CC nerfs and kicks need to be reverted.


[[Rogue changes uses vanish]]


Now has two xpacs CD to get out of stealth again in WoW 13.

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Seems like if they’re going to gut rogue control, rogues need simply to hit harder.


You know what needed to happen with CC, but Blizzard is just too ignorant to work it out?

Make CC for every class harder to use and cost valuable resources that force them to pick between damage, cc, and healing. (then cc can have full duration again) Same with healer classes and tanks, that need to wisely pick their use.

Example combo points flow too fast now, combo point builders do basically nothing, amd finishers are effectively pointless… delete offensive and defensive CD added since TBC and buff normal abilities, then make the normal abilities cost valuable resources so that things are not spammed problem is solved


you’d think but with all those changes we’re getting for the next major patch (lol), they dont want us to do damage OR to CC. we’re there to just be annoying so the other zugzugs can pve rotation down our targets.


There are no rogue notes probably because they are taking time to hash it out and test.

Trust me, I don’t like being in SL 2 either but let’s not act like hunter forum hijackers boys. All we can do is wait and see and offer feedback.

Yeah it is incredibly frustrating but who knows,

They are doing away with cd stacking on mages as an example ROP was something they wouldn’t budge on in the past.

All we do know is shadowblades and shadow techniques are going away in 11.0.

Meaning goremaw’s would easily become the new hitter and id kill for energetic stabbing to come back.

My biggest hopes is that they use all old talent trees as a base line and they stop making rogue for other people to take ahold of us and just make it for rogues.

Stop w double dance, stop w cd stacking, go back to murdering people with fatttttttr backstabs + ambush eviscerate.
Nice rupture and garrotes rolling etc.

Dance spamming jacks everything up and leaves the rest of the kit feeling cruddy in all seriousness.

We can get ticked all we want boys but we will just have to wait and see man.


I swear the catch phrase for DF pvp is “What did I die to?” Game has come down to purely throughput and cd trading, such a shame.


That would probably really help. I can’t remember who said it, but they said there was too many “micro-CCs”. There’s a lot of these short 2s-ish CCs that get constantly spammed. And yah. That stuff was incredibly annoying in solo shuffle when I was actually PVPing.

It’s definitely a lot harder to put all the blame on that nowadays. But, I still firmly believe a lot of Subtlety’s issues are due to Shadow Dance frequency.
But, at this point I don’t think there is any chance of that changing. There seems to be a lot of Rogues that can’t stand the non-Shadow Dance rotation due to it just being too slow.

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Really is the problem… For example, skills like Kidney shot are more or less balanced, I mean less so now days because they’re way under powered compared to other similar CC’s that require zero cost… Then again combo points flow like rain now so its less meaningful than it was say back in TBC before Wrath when combo points started getting a little too easy in some regard.

IMO things really did not get ugly in regard to combo points until legion / BFA ish… somewhere in there.

Regardless of the rogue problems, other CC’s like my Paladins HoJ was NEVER a good design, instant cast, has no wind up, no real impact on mana pool, no other resource burden (holy power in later expansions) etc. Storm bolt / shockwave, etc… they all suffer this same problem… You just use them on CD since its there, but it does not harm your DPS / HPS rotation.

Imagine if DPS / Healers / Tanks all had to really think about using CC again, like oh man if I cast this CC or use this interrupt not only did I use a GDC (many things are not on GCD) but also a valuable resource is gone and its not coming back instantly.

Same thing for rogues, combo points should matter again, and so should energy, as it is now you just blap it out there and nothing really does anything, abilities feel like auto attacks and auto attack is like a wimpy DoT…

TLDR Retail design is terrible.

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I believe it is more realistic that they are making either a middle of the road to compromise or dedicate one pathing to have frequent dancing / only in dance type stuff vs other pathing being truer to wod subtlety.

These trees are more than capable with choice nodes which they have demonstrated for other classes.

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I don’t know. I think CD is pretty important when comparing. Kidney Shot’s 20s CD was always justified to me because it had costs to it. Where as, the others didn’t. The CDR on HOJ really boosted it. And you know, with the Warrior ones. I didn’t mind too much before when they only had access to one. Either Storm Bolt or Shockwave. Because, they weren’t as strong compared now. When it was a 4s stun on a 30s CD vs a 6s stun on a 20s CD. You know, that’s OK. But, 4s vs 5s plus they can have Shockwave, too?

And I mean, Rogues are no different. You mentioned too many combo points. But, honestly, that’s really not even that bad. The big issue is with Shadow Dance CDR, you can spam Cheap Shots like a madman if you wanted! Cheap Shot is instant, can’t be dodged/blocked/parried, and is only 1 second less than Kidney Shot. You might think “Energy cost”. But, with Rushed Setup and Shadow Focus, it’s only 27 energy. I can’t believe this is still a thing, to be honest. I am surprised Cheap Shot hasn’t been nerfed somehow.

Anyways. Got a bit off the rails there. But, I think we both agree the method they chose to revert this obvious power creep in CC was wrong. I wouldn’t be completely opposed to everyone having additional cost to CC. I just don’t really think it is necessary. If they just had longer CDs and less access to multiple stuns.

True. But, I am not sure how they can deal with the 2 charges problem. I mean, a choice node between 2 charges+CDR vs % damage would be pretty favorable towards the charges+CDR. Unless the % damage was something absurd which would cause all kinds of problems. Getting that % damage at a right value where it’s not overpowered, but not weak enough where it’s not worth taking will be pretty difficult.

Though, I’ve been sitting here thinking. They could go crazy with Dark Shadow. Like, imagine if they nerfed baseline Cheap Shot to 2s and had Dark Shadow bump it back to 4s. Granted, that would cause issues among the other specs… It’d have to be a Subtlety thing. Not as simple as I originally thought. I just know they don’t want tooltips to be a book. Having Deepening Shadows add a charge, CDR, and nerf your stun would be a lot.

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I believe you mis understood me…

I was talking about non-kidney shot abilities, things like storm bolt… those are the issue. Kidney itself is fine, but I do feel we still make combo points too fast…

The problem with that is that now because of that our damage abilities do basically nothing outside of dance and CD’;s

Frankly, the OG rogue CC kit was fine, its the other classes basically “FREE” CC that is the biggest problem

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Oh no, I understood. I meant that it was OK for things like Storm Bolt and Hammer of Justice to exist due to their longer CDs or shorter duration. Kidney Shot costed you damage and took build up, but had a shorter CD and (in most cases) a longer duration.

Nowadays, the CDs aren’t as drastic and after the CC nerf, the durations aren’t, either.

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Oh look, we actually did get some changing coming with Tuesdays maintenance. Sub got nerfed again. Lol what a joke of an expansion for this class. They’re upset about our damage in short windows. THATS ALL WE HAVE FOR DAMAGE AS SUB lol. I think I’ma jump to warrior. These nerfs are killing me. I want to be useful for more than 5 second windows. Time to go warrior


As expected with a talent finally being fixed. Another talent gets nerfed even further than it was buffed. Now subs damage is going to be even more consolidated into a tight window. Nerfing weapon master was the icing on top.

Assa got the of course perfect 5% damage buff so we can pve with their pvp.
No making kingsbane a worthy ability again.