Toolkit means nothing if we do no damage and can’t kill anyone.
Toolkits mean nothing when as of 10.1 all Cc gets nurfed.
This means that setup based comps are dead, which is all rogue had. It will move towards pve based comps which rogue can’t fit into because all the other melee are significantly better brawlers.
The only pve comp rogue realistically had was RLS and in today’s game format both rogue and aff are leagues behind any other comp.
I at least take some small comfort in the fact that I still get to work from home, while these obnoxious class designers are getting called BTO.
I hope they quit and someone competent gets brought in instead.
What I’d value even more than a rework at this point might be a global dev-side rethink about how Rogues are even presented/talked about, because so much of what we deal with has to do with optics, and there’s abysmal design sympathy for how much heat we take from the community when official information is off or misleading. And it usually is off.
Here’s an example from the 1/27 bluepost about the then imminent Ret rework…
I remember reading this and wincing at the way in which that these kinds of statements cement bias in the minds of non-Rogues that read it. If you’ve never played a Rogue and/or don’t understand its mobility, you read this funny jab as the incorrect gospel, “RoGuEs hAvE tHe aBsoLuTe bEsT mObiLitY in tHe gAmE.” We don’t. We have good mobility, but there are severe caveats, and we die without what we have. Sprint is middle of the road mobility. Shadowstep/Grappling Hook are solid, but are hardly the ‘best’, and they aren’t the easiest abilities to use defensively. If you take Blizzard’s word for it, though, you have good (albeit incorrect) basis to want Rogue nerfed.
Same with defensive capability and utility. The prevailing myth is that Rogue has both god-tier defensives and god-tier utility. To the former: while technically true in a vacuum, we fall apart outside of our defensives where other melee specs hardily survive long enough to be helped by their healer. To the latter: Rogue utility is wildly overrated because of how it feels to be stunned and how it looks when every streamer impulse adds a spec or two in the MDI S-tier. We have good utility, but, like our defensives, we’re so dead without it.
My most wishful, copeful hope is that we’re entering 10.1 low as part of a larger strategy that understands how disproportionately Rogue suffers when it starts a tier strong. Hopefully it isn’t just the Rogue playerbase that understands how much we’re blown apart because of how jumpscary we are in PvP. Our design needs to account for that caveat from here, because designs to this point have done the diametric opposite.
No matter if kidney shot was a long cd, people will get upset,
I cannot understand how people get upset being hit by us when we don’t do big hits.
Warrior stormbolt is what ? 30sec cd for 3sec stun?
he can do more than double the damage you do in kidney shot and cs put together and keep whooping on someone after
Literally same copied from rogues, all rogue passives now because boo hoo for the meow meows. This janky class does 80k finishers, more cc than us, big bleeds, crap like feral frenzy does a lot.
BUt u HaVe VaNISH aND sMOkEBOMb (shove it)
Riddle me this
why do ferals have all rogue passives, do more cc, more tanky due to ridiculous bear stuff now, and do more damage per hit?
Riddle me this
why do we have covenant abilities instead of consistent damage “you press eviscerate, it does a lot”
why are snarly comments like “you won’t have the mobility of rogues hur hur”
Makes no sense and was a dumb dumb of a comment. Rogues have decent mobility.
Riddle me this boys
why does a ret paladin get super cb pts now, passively generate w auto attacks now snd rogue has to rely on gimmicks.
Really at a point where they don’t give a flying fish about rogues. Give us gimmicks and nothing can do baseline damage. Great design man.
Take all the parts of rogue and put it in other classes to fix their problems yet give rogues gimmicks.
Rogue is a spakle job for all the holes in the walls they punched in piecing together SL to work for DF.
Ex: 7 combo points should be slamming, lethality should do what the name says.
Idc if we had 5 ambush talents to make it an actual ambush.
Improved Find Weakness
Improved Find Weakness is the biggest up for us atm as Subtlety rogues are concerned in both pvp and pve, tune down the other crap and improve FW. Eviscerate, backstab, shadowstrike all do sucky damage because of FW being wicked low.
Shadow damage ignores armor but is also low af too so the “we already ignore armor with shadow damage” is poor.
Deeper Daggers is a poor mans version of Sanguinary Vein.
Damage from Shadow blades at the very least needs to be shifted more towards the base kit.
Wod rogue would dust any version of current rogue.
It’s also very, very easy to see that the devs are having a hard time finding the niche for what role-dedicated classes (eg. Mage, Rogue) need to be in a landscape that is predominantly hybrid. And I’m sure it’s a tough navigation to avoid too much of a performance disparity. I think this is where we end up with so much of our kit’s potential - in the case of Sin specifically, at least - being shipped off to the melee off-specs of tank/healer classes and our access to simultaneous damage profiles being taxed in ways that hybrid classes just don’t suffer as much anymore. And for good reason, as the modern-WoW convention of spec (vs. class) identity really should be what fuels the devs’ design sensibilities.
But it needs so much work if they actually care to fix it. It seems like the “niche” they’ve tried to carve for role-dedicated classes for way too long is that which archaically forces us to activate X spec if we want to focus on Y kinds of damage profiles, with their “balance” measure being to spread our kit around to blur any possible power/gameplay disparities. It just doesn’t work well, especially if similar hybrids are able to notch spec paths that let them ST, cleave, funnel, 3-target, 5-target, and 8+ target, all from the same setup, and we, because of this, end up feeling very much like the flimsy cardboard cutout of a class. Or worse - the advertisement for damage specs on a hybrid class elsewhere.
Say it with me: dramatic reimagining/design review required.
Agreed, it’s tough and i’ll give them that but also doesn’t excuse making gimmicks that we rely on and are often still underpowered out of fear of us doing “too well” then designing several nodes for other classes to build their entire kit going down the line till it is going to be strong no matter what.
Simultaneously, everyone doesn’t need to be good at X Y and Z. People have blurred the lines over the years big time. “I should do aoe, and single target” and blow everything up then throw a fit when wArCrAfT lOgs tEllS mE mY cLasS suX". Players make the game way worse and an example is as follows.
Ion once said recently “we make game 1 and players make game 2". Which is completely true to an extent. They make classes do X and players make it even worse with peer pressure, min maxing the fun out of anything, whining why they can’t deathsweep everything and do ridiculous aoe. " If you’re not 1 shotting, you’re bad” type mentality. The devs are under a lot of pressure to make stuff exciting but also seem to not think of things ahead sometimes.
Example: DH on release, Ret paladins now, Assassination in the start, Subtlety gimmick rogue in the start. They make dumb stuff for rogues then tone it down and then say whaaattt whaaaaattt. 10.1 will be one of the roughest patches for rogues (not just in pvp but in pve too). Nerf garbage secret technique and get it the frick out of here, put some actual finisher damage back into eviscerates as an example. Stop with the CD stacking and talk to your players and not just certain groups for their own agenda.
They can’t tune anything due to how much crap is loaded in the trees with reprimand, flag, sepsis etc. Not a single rogue asked for any of this ( If you did shame on you - you effed our class). SL stuff worked in SL because of the conduits, because of that jazz and now we have lingering remenants to make them “work”. There is nothing rogue about any of these abilities.
We just want core abilities to feel good and that’s it, nothing more and nothing less.
Rogues were solid in WoD and In Cata by design, didn’t need gimmicks, didn’t need silly stuff and were prob far easier to tune. The good idea fair cropdusted someone’s keyboard and made artifacts so we were changed to fit that, then more problems came and now for BFA azerite to patch classes to work, then came SL with more dang systems to patch rogues again and make stupidly obscene gimmicks ( it keeps getting worse and worse and less rogue every dang expansion and it has to stop.)
Dragonflight was the expansion where the devs said recently
" This is the third era of wow"
Sounds cool but SHOW it, get back to actual class design and reign people in. Yes we haven’t had talent trees in years but the dang blue print for classes were literally all expansions prior to legion where things started getting scuffed up.
Leave aoe to casters, let them do what they have always done. Classes that are weird like Dh should have to pick but never do both. Same w monks summoning everything from the peaks of winterspring and kun lai summit.
Us rogues need to just go back to killing priority targets with minor assist damage. Not secret technique garbage, not padding meters with silly things.
Good ol fashioned bleed everyone up and smoke the primary target. “Overall damage” of logs is just padding the heck out of meters “how much can we aoe everything and look how cool I am mom”. - no one cares -
There has to be a very distinct line drawn between what we can and cannot do again instead of the devs putting their own bias as the designer, listening to players who do stuff, people they pay to play their stuff (sponsored streams etc).
I don’t give a flying fish about any of this aoe crud and many rogues probably don’t either unless they played from Legion forward. In that case they aren’t truly a rogue as they don’t really know what the class is capable of.
Because you call for the removal of anything and everything new, while failing to understand why they were implemented in the first place. If you want the old rogue, go play classic where the spec design you want actually fits the game.
Oh great, don’t tell me your gonna start telling me how roll the bones is actually a skilled and fun mechanic. How shadow tech is a lot smoother of a passive compared to HaT and energetic stabbing.
It’s fine to enjoy this version of rogue, but don’t gaslight and tell someone to go to classic wow because they stated the obvious. Sure he might not be speaking for every rogue, but open your eyes and look around. A LOT of people other than him are crying out for our class to return to it’s WoD/MoP versions. Threads and posts everywhere saying that we “need” a rework.
I dont play outlaw like that, so its not my place. I personally don’t mind it and think players over emphasize its importance though.
Shadow Techniques as well is another ability where people over emphasize its importance. Its only truly relevant in ST as sub doesnt play with echoing reprimand and spends aoe ping ponging between max CP and empty.
Not only is this not true, i am saying this would not work because the game is not the same as it was in WoD/MoP. There are more classes in the game. M+ has been added since then. Talent trees have returned. Things are overall different. The vast majority of people calling for the return to such expansions focus on PvP so i can understand why theyd want that. But for the other game modes (namely M+) it makes no sense. Do you really not see what is wrong with having Sin be the cleave spec, Outlaw the aoe, and sub the single target or however you think they should be divided up? With no overlap into the other niches?
Every time we invite a rogue to the group, there’s 3 scenarios that happen. And to clarify, we’re talking about retail because in classic, atleast rogue isn’t a joke.
The Outlaw player. Every pull they take the yahtzee cup and pray they get all 6s so they can do anything relevant. After 5 goes, they still did nothing relevant and were bottom of the charts. Real shame.
The Assassination Player. This is similar to the Demon Hunters that play on a steering wheel, but imagine assa rogues to be on a steering wheel + its manual. Basically, its piloted easy gameplay aside from the fact that every 30 minutes irl you have to remember to reapply your damage to your knives. woohoo.
The sub player. Imagine this for me, k? You’re walking down a dark scary alleyway. A guy walks up to you with a gun, to rob your jays off ur feet. He pops like 2/12 shots into you, but the problem is that the caliber that his gun is chambered in is .22lr so you really aren’t that scathed. After that, he just stares at you angrily, yelling and attempting to be intimidating until roughly 2-3 minutes later, he finally goes to reload his gun for another go.
Tell me this isn’t a problem without telling me it aint a problem yo. Clown.