What these threads really make me wonder, and I have asked before and never actually received an answer:
Why donât the people in these threads complaining about how no one wants them because insert reason toss each other their btags and/or discord and group up?
sure, but thatâs not the problem. A vetting service is undestandable given the current stated of things but that doesnât mean that Raider IO is a good thing for the larger community either.
What guild is going to recruit inexperienced players into their guild, giving them the experience they need to participate, if they can just grab some random player from a ready pool of ready players?
Guilds and social wow outside of small groups of friends is dying. I think that over the long term, thatâs going to be harmful to the health of the gameâs social aspects and infrastructure.
You can seem a similar trend in general for online gaming. The average player is simply solo queuing their way to a sub par experience and Gaming Clans are a dying paradigm. Everyone is taking the easy way out and itâs detrimental to the reason we play online games; playing with other human beings who we can build lasting relationships with.
The last person I met online who I interact with regularly happened over 10 years ago. Very rare is it that people care to make connections to other players that they donât already know or who arenât a part of their ever shrinking social circles.
Youâre making a lot of sense
The problem you have, I think, is with the players not the tool and I donât know that there is anything to be done to fix the actual âissueâ. We will see if Classic addresses the âback in my dayâŚâ people, but all I can say is I have a bit of a different recollection of things than the claims of everyone talked and helped and this and that. I do hope though people find what they are hoping to. 
Iâm half joking but go alliance. We are so starved for people that youâll get in a 10 easily. If you can find one. I tried doing a underrot last night and there were 4 dungeons in total going. Total. But yeah I get quick invites and Iâm flipping Ret.
I like how you specify experience and not skill ![:smiley:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/smiley.png?v=6" ":smiley:")
Well, youâre not wrong. It annoyed me from the start that M+ was making raiding irrelevant. Many classes BiS come dungeons thanks to M+, and the removal of tier sets further amplified the problem since at least in Legion you wanted to raid for your set bonuses. You used to do dungeons to get gear and prep for raids. Now, M+ is the true endgame and raiding is just an alternative loot source.
Never did like the rushed gameplay, either. I wish Blizz could find a way to enhance challenge without imposing strict time limits on you.
It really doesnât measure skill. I donât consider myself good at M+ but I usually run with guildies who do a lot and tell me when to double pull, who is interrupting what, they make the route on MDT, etc. I would say they are more skilled than I am but we all have similar scores.
Yea, exactly, I consider myself to be an average player. Iâm not a Mythic raider, and i donât really want to be. I only do a few M+ each week and started relatively late in the season so i donât have the experience to really push past 10s yet.
Iâd have to say the average player can do 10s once they get the experience, the problem is, most average players donât want to put in the time to get the experience to complete them in time and feel entitled due to their ilvl (itâs how i felt S1)
RIO and focusing on building my score and using that as my judge of progression instead of ilvl is what turned things around for me. I stopped looking at it as a Gate Keeper but instead more as an Experience bar that i needed to fill up. Ever sense RIO has been extremely fun to use as a measure of my self growth, I donât use it when building my own groups, but i use it to judge myself.
He doesnât even have to do this really. All he has to do is run his own key. And he can do as many M+ dungeons as he wants.
There is something that can be done: Blizzard can make the call if Raider IO is a good or bad tool and either endorse it, choosing to put the game down a different socially organized path, or to change the API such that nobody is allowed access to that information, forcing players back into organizing guilds and vetting people the âold fashioned wayâ.
What it comes down to is does Blizzard want tools and algorithms to be the driving force for player interpersonal interaction or do they want to foster the conditions that drive players to finding more organic methods for self organizing.
In my opinion, match making, which is essentially what Raider IO is, is a detrimental tool if your goal is to foster interpersonal interaction that happen organically and on personal levels. And while it may make our online gaming lives easier to just hit a button to magically be grouped up with other human players, itâs really is a less enjoyable experience overall.
Sure it does. Just run your own key. You canât be declined from your own group.
I recently started playing my hunter again after not playing it since halfway through uldir. I had 375ilvl gear and my season 1 score was only around 400. I couldnât get invited to a +5 let alone a +10.
So I just started running my own key, I invited players gearing alts who had good .io scores on their main. By the end of the first day of doing this I had done +13 Freehold in time, and geared up significantly. By the end of the week my .io score was 1215, without being invited into a single PUG group, only forming my own.
And this is playing a class that is not part of the M+ meta.
Aeskir - Caelestrasz if you want to see my hunterâs .io score.
I think the bigger picture is Raiding and not so much Mythic+. Getting a mythic group together is orders of magnitude less difficult and not even worthy of complaint in my opinion.
^ This.
Everyone in this thread, including you, is in one, so ![:man_shrugging:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/man_shrugging.png?v=6" ":man_shrugging:")
You donât need an .io score to get into raids though. I routinely see guys with terrible scores or no scores at all in my heroic PUGs. You wonât get into an AOTC only run that 1 shots every boss but itâs very possible to get into raid PUGs with no score at all. Again because you can be replaced in a raid, the group leader isnât risking much by inviting you since if you turn out to be terrible they can just get someone else.
You should know thatâs not what will happen. People have always found a way to self-segregate. Again, RIO is the current tool being used to do that, but no more than that. Even were they to block the API at this very moment, if you think that people wouldnât find another way to effectively do the same thing then you are probably being naive. I didnât do any pugging until Wrath, but even then, which is supposedly the highlight of everything that was awesome⌠we still had gearscore.
We may wish for times past, but they are just that⌠past.
I dont think that Raider IO is the problem. I think itâs just a piece of a larger puzzle where a number of automated tools are being used to organize players rather than the players vetting their party mates as a result of organically meeting and playing with them.
I just think we disagree on what the issue stems from. You are blaming the tool(s), and I am blaming the people using the tools.
I donât
The biggest problem in BC was trying to get good group together for a heroic. You needed a fairly specific set of skills and there were many nights of logging early because we just couldnât get a group.
M+ dungeons are fairly unforgiving and there are a lot of âha ha gotchaâ mechanics that arenât inherently obvious. When you get into 8âs and above iLvl isnât going to save you from most of the mistakes you can easily make.
if the tools werenât made available, players wouldnât be able to use them. Itâs not like players made these tools themselves. The LFG tool was created by Blizzard. Without it, Raider IO would be nearly useless. Instead, youâd actually have to play the game with people, become acquainted, and vet them yourself. Now, LFG spams you with requests that you can pick and choose from.
Iâm not even saying that these tools are bad, rather that they are changing the paradigm in a why that is leading players to less than optimal experiences.