i mean pvp and pve tuning is separate. just some pve nerfs for havoc effected vdh. theres no pvp nerfs that effected pve
what would you say is its niche?
Mob control/kiting, not many other tanks can control like Vengeance can.
All of havocs damage reduction and self healing reduction came from PVP complaints. Even pre-nerfs we weren’t the highest dps, we were between 5 and 6 overall and about 12 on ST. After the nerfs we fell to 11th or so overall and 24th ST.
and those are all pvp based nerfs. the rest was pve tuning that effected veng. im not saying that it didnt hurt havoc, im saying some pve based nerfs havoc got, harmed veng for no real reason. now veng is probably the bottom tank spec right now
ProtW has an AoE fear/disorient, a single target stun, a slow that is a baseline part of their rotation, a single target stun as one of their damage cooldowns (Shield Charge) and an AoE stun as well as access to a root/tether via Spear of Bastion (though it is not really played) and access to an AoE interrupt+silence
ProtP has an additional interrupt (which is de facto the shortest CD interrupt in the game due to haste scaling), an AoE interrupt via Divine Toll, an AoE disorient, and a single target stun w/ massive CDR as well as access to an AoE slow via Consecrated Ground
BDK has a powerful single target slow, an AoE disorient, two grips, an AoE grip, one of the most powerful AoE slows in the game and potential access to a single target stun or reduced CD on their (successful) interrupts
Vengeance has an AoE stun, an AoE silence (which is very powerful I will admit), a single target incap (demons and humanoids only) and a slow that hits 2 enemies (or 3 with an additional point investment) with additional access to an AoE disorient (if you are willing to sacrifice points that would otherwise go to survivability/throughput)
Without easier access to Chains and Misery I wouldn’t exactly say VDH is the king of crowd control when it comes to tanks. It’s not necessarily lacking, especially due to the strength of SoS, but it definitely feels lacking at times IMO compared to other tanks. Especially in pulls that require frequent or semi-frequent stuns, such as the last few pulls in Algethar if you are unable to cheese the stairs in a pug where people are not coordinating stuns and they often overlap.
Kiting, yes they are definitely the strongest, but not in crowd control IMO.
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with all due respect, how could kiting possibly be a positive trait you’d wanna have on tank. and its not even true to the degree where it would be impactful:
- dk can put down dnd and kite around its edges because dnd slows
- dh can throw glaive slow
2 random targets, with a cd - monk rolling away 2x is the same as 2x internal strike and monk can rop after
not to mention our mob control consists of checks notes
- sigil of silence, actually unique, yay
- sigil of misery? neither terribly impactful, nor really played. warrior (shout), druid (roar), paladin (blinding light) and arguably dk (mass grip) can do the same
- chaos nova? half of the dps specs already bring an aoe stop anyways. granted, only warrior and monk have an aoe stun
- sigil of chains? not played for roughly 2 years, unplayable atm due to the cost. somewhat unique, dk has access to it too and a lot easier, doesn’t play it either and has abo limb anyways
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What would a 3rd DH spec even look like? The other classes have three or four very different specs a 2nd DH DPS spec doesn’t make much since.
Xepheris, this is nonsense. Read the book and you will find being a demon hunter is more than twisting glaives.
Demon hunters are magic wielding melee fighters. Emphasize more of the magical part or create some 2handed spec shenanigans. Maybe ranged bow class.
But with the talents i can see why that is not happening
Have you seen a rogue? Or a warrior? Or a Mage? Hunter prior to surv going melee…
I wasn’t arguing from a lore perspective but class design 
also no point to this thread anymore, the rumors of evoker 3rd spec was just a rumor with the release of tiersets on ptr.
Well they did and black dragonflight spells to the spell book and the Our Destiny quest line for evokers only has you travel to the new zone for “new specialization remembered toast”
then a tier set would have been released for it, along with the spec to test both
Just because evoker doesn’t get 3 rd spec this patch, it doesn’t mean we cant remind the devs that DH deserves one just in case if they do have something for evokers in any future.
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They need to take momentum and turn it into a ranged spec. All the movement damaging stuff plus ranged casts or like a crossbow. Take the damage off havocs fel rush, and buff their single target abilities. Boom, third spec. It’s not that hard.
Ngl a third dh spec would be sick. Maybe like a ranged dps or something that uses bows or something… The dev team seems to have a lot on their plate atm, but it’s definitely a fun idea to think about
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So since we are the ugly step child that only deserves two specs. Instead of another dps spec maybe a second tank spec? One that focuses more on melee midigation instead of magic midigation. Would at least be something new. Evokers will have a third spec before the xpac is over.
ya no lol. imagine another tank spec when veng is what it is.
I don’t think tacking a third spec, DPS or Tank, onto DH at this stage would make sense from a narrative/thematic standpoint or fix any of the class’s problems. If anything it would just make things worse since that’s yet another spec to balance the class around when VDH has glaring design issues as it stands that have yet to see reworks or fixes.