Why is the refund policy revoked?

General Discussion
85

The words were “its impossible to enjoy the game” not “you’re not allowed to enjoy the game.” I didn’t say that either, nor did I suggest anyone else did.

There is no misuse of the phrase here, it’s a provable fact. See, the problem here is comments like these are putting words in people’s mouths. Suggesting someone said things they didn’t actually say is damaging and harmful and should absolutely be addressed.

“well, I i dont have this issue i can’t see the problem”

I never said this and its a provable fact. Saying I don’t have an issue != saying I can’t see the problem. In the majority of all cases, I do see the problem.

I am not doing harm. It’s not “Exactly!” it’s “exactly wrong.” I am helping by doing this. It may anger you, it may frustrate you, but the idea that Blizzard or any dev team is going to outright ignore a bug because not everyone has experienced it is ridiculous and wrong and no development team operated by human beings operates this way.

Both of you are wrong on this point. I’ve explained it many times, issue scope is critical in diagnosing bugs and issues. I have worked in game development myself and have had experience dealing with this as a QA person. I will absolutely push back on this argument of yours because it is best described by words I can’t put on this forum.

What’s even worse is that if people withhold this kind of information, the kind of information you’re insisting I shouldn’t provide, we are effectively lying to Blizzard to pressure them to fix something (that they should really fix regardless)

False. 100% false. No QA team has some sort of metric like “We won’t fix this bug unless at least 67% of users have it.”

It’s even provably false, as they made an “attempt” to fix the FPS problem in the last patch, even though not everyone was experiencing the problem, and even though I (inaccurately, admittedly) said that I couldn’t reproduce it either. Clearly, me saying I didn’t have the issue did not prevent them from putting forth some attempt to fix it.

When it comes to prioritizing bug fixes, the typical way is to prioritize the bugs causing the most harm to users. Even if not everyone is experiencing an issue, it can still be damaging enough to the game, its players, and the company’s reputation to be worth addressing.

Also, you’re creating an impression in me that you think I’m actually trying to / want to sabotage you and keep a problem that’s affecting you from getting fixed. I’m not sure if that’s exactly what you’re thinking, but I promise that is not the case. All bugs are worthy of being examined and fixed, not just the ones that “everyone” has.

Finally:

First: Where’s your evidence that they have actually done this? I have never seen them actually come out and say “Well, some people have a problem and others don’t, therefore it must be an end user issue.” You wrote this statement in such a way that says they actively do this. Please provide examples.

Second: Only the most incompetent QA teams out there would even consider dismissing a bug as “an end user issue” without actually checking it and trying to reproduce it themselves- Because this is a false correlation. Software of all kinds routinely has bugs and problems that not every user will experience, and are not end user issues. Windows itself probably has thousands of such issues. Even if a bug is dependent on certain hardware, for instance, that’s not an end user issue, it’s a bug that only manifests itself under certain conditions.

86

are you trying to suggest that there are good QA practices in place after seeing how every patch has been botched so far

87

There probably was at one time. Now there are no QA practices because it seems like no work is being done at all (again).

So if I’m being frank, you can’t reduce a chance that already doesn’t exist unless/until they actually come out and say if/when they are going to do a patch. The point was that regardless of the opinions posted above, understanding the scope of an issue is instrumental in diagnosing it and so this notion that informing Blizzard that the scope is not 100% of all users somehow reduces the chance of the current hot issue being fixed is ridiculous at best. Even if it’s not EVERYONE it is clearly affecting a lot of people. We aren’t talking about some crazy edge case they could ignore without hurting anyone. So there is absolutely no possibility that any of my previous posts about not seeing the FPS issue (which, again, I do actually see at this point) would have lowered the chances of it getting fixed.

But if the game did have a QA team, I promise you they would not be that stupid. Remember the original team was not lost because they were bad, they were lost because of Activision cost cutting.

88

That’s not how we’re addressing the issue. It’s about when you write that you don’t have that problem; they see it and realize that there’s nothing to fix immediately because CaptainJack, our most reliable person with a high level, doesn’t have these problems.
It’s simply not about 67% of the players having the same problem. Instead, we write about a problem in the bug report so that they can see it and fix it. But when you’re present in the bug report forum, they also see your post stating that you don’t have a problem. This gives them the impression that it’s only a user’s problem and not a problem with the game itself.

Then what you’re saying doesn’t match reality because everyone had that problem in the beginning. So please don’t try to bring up things that aren’t true just to strengthen your argument. I think you should instead act and refer that our bug or issue doesn’t match because you don’t have it. You don’t need to say that. You might want to ask why you have the problem and what could be the reason for the problem, rather than referring that you don’t have it. It’s very important for you in all posts to refer that you don’t have the problem.
Please, Captain, try to remove that from you. Instead, ask why the problem arose, because that’s how you help, my friend. So please, keep that in mind.^^

So please understand us. When you enter all bug report forums and state that you don’t have the problem, it becomes very perplexing for us, and it also appears puzzling to Blizzard. You can’t enter all bug report forums and assert that you don’t have the problem. Bug reports are submitted in forums so that Blizzard can observe them and address them. However, with your responses in the forum’s bug report, it suggests there’s no need to address the issue. Thus, please comprehend how frustrating it is for us when you do this. No ill intentions, but it’s frustrating for us when someone comes and claims they don’t have the problem.

89

The problem is, that’s what you’re implying when you speak out against me. The reality is, issue scope is important for issue diagnosis. Me saying “I don’t have this issue” does NOT in ANY WAY deter a game dveloper from investigating or fixing an issue. Issues are not addressed based on how many people have them. For instance, if some people are randomly getting their save data deleted in some game, even if it’s just a few people, that’s a serious issue that would be deemed top priority by that game’s QA team.

As someone who has worked in QA, it is in my nature to test out bugs if I see people reporting them (even though I DON’T WORK FOR BLIZZARD). If I can’t reproduce an issue, I will say so, and if I also have the problem, I will say so (and provide 100% reproduction steps if possible). You can not and will not change me, this is just how I am as someone who has worked in QA. And other people who work in QA (at least, the good ones) work and think like I do.

No, not everyone had that problem in the beginning. Only some people did. Right from the beginning, everyone was insisting that this issue only affected AMD CPU users. That by definition isn’t everyone, it’s not even a majority. But yet, they still made some attempt at a fix.

Scope is one factor among many. Even if only a few people have a bug, it will still be addressed unless it’s some trivial edge case (assuming it’s a dev team that’s actually fixing any bugs at all…) This notion that one guy saying they couldn’t reproduce an issue will prevent a bug from getting fixed is utterly ridiculous.

I’ve explained it many times: Scope is effective at inferring the potential sources of problems. Bugs that don’t affect everyone all the time are still bugs, you can’t simply write it off as an “end user issue” on that fact alone, and as I said, anyone who does so is incompetent at QA.

90

Please understand me: I get how it might feel frustrating for you, but I both promise and guarantee you, my actions have a legitimate purpose. I’m sorry if my failed attempts to redproduce certain bugs frustrate you, I really am. But it’s still important information that can and does serve to help identify and fix problems, and I will not stop doing it.

91

The whole “incompetent at QA” part is likely what folks in this thread are accusing Blizzard of, Captain.

92

Most of the problems relating to war3R were on the publisher side, not the development side. i.e. not wanting to spend money on the project anymore or whatever.

1 Like
93

Sincerely, I believe your contributions are valuable to this game. You’re undoubtedly an intelligent individual with much to offer in assisting fellow players. Perhaps consider refraining from mentioning that you haven’t encountered the problem yourself; it could be more beneficial that way. I’m of the opinion that doing so may lead to improvements, as you’ll see. It might be helpful to inquire about the cause of the problem and ask what steps the person took that led to it; that’s my perspective.

94

It wouldn’t be, but thanks for sharing your insights on this matter.

Everyone in all situations should be heard when investigating issues, to paint the most accurate picture possible of the situation and to diagnose the probable causes. Contrary to the belief of many users on this forum - including, I suspect, yourself - Reporting the inability to reproduce an issue is still helpful as it helps an investigating QA person determine the scope of the issue which can impact the potential causes. I realize this may be hard for you and others to understand, however, it is simply the truth. The notion that a non-zero number of people can’t reproduce a bug reduces the chances it will be addressed is dubious at best. Most of the issues in question are relatively widespread and therefore not edge cases or the sort of thing that isn’t impacting the game in a negative way, and so even if not everyone is able to reproduce an issue, it still stands the same ( and admittedly rather low in the case of Blizzard) chance of being addressed as it would if 100% of users could reliably reproduce it. I’ve explained dozens of times that the level to which a bug or issue can be reproduced can be very indcative of the cause and make finding and fixing th at problem much easier.

And I would also like to reiterate, for probably the fortieth time, that my inability to reproduce a bug while testing for it is not a judgement of any person reporting it, is not intended to imply their issue is “fake” or does not exist, nor is it intended to imply that it is not important.

As someone who has worked in QA, I routinely investigate bugs people report in a game in an effort to be helpful to whoever made said game as an almost instinctive response, and I will not mislead them or anyone else by not reporting the result of said testing.

95

But could you please explain why you are so determined to keep stating that you don’t have the problem? I’m having trouble understanding your strong stance on not following my suggestion. I simply asked if you would consider refraining from stating that you don’t have the issue in every bug report referenced in the forum. Could you share your perspective so that I can better grasp your viewpoint? ^^

96

I’m only “determined” because of the hate I’m getting. I wouldn’t even really be thinking much of it otherwise. I will not be shut down or silenced because a couple of people on an internet forum don’t like me. It’s really that simple, and I would think someone with your eloquence with words would understand. This is the only place where this has been happening. Any other forum, my efforts to investigate bug reports FOR FREE for studios I don’t even work for would be actually appreciated.

97

I’m really sorry to hear that you feel this way. No one should have to feel like that because of a forum. I believe we should all think about our behavior. We should try to understand each other, respect each other, and find common ground. It’s unfortunate that the people you’ve been talking to haven’t found common ground.

But let’s try to do this right, Captain, and hopefully we can find common ground. How about you don’t constantly refer to not having the problem and let’s try to understand how the problem arose, why it occurred, and how we can resolve the situation or help them out of it?

This is a suggestion, of course. Nothing you need to say yes to or anything ^^

98

You’re right that what i suggested isn’t exclusively the main problem, but it is a contributing factor.

It doesn’t really change that i would’ve liked to see screenshots of people telling you its impossible to enjoy this game. lol.

Also side note, dont ever bring in a conversation like “people tell me its impossible to enjoy the game” then expect me to reply to that, i have no part in that, this doesn’t concern me because i didn’t tell you its impossible to enjoy the game.

If you want to bring things that “surrounding people” have said that you dont like, i can bring up so many things similarly that i dont like into a conversation with you so much you’d that would throw up.

I dont care if some people told you its impossible to enjoy the game. and i dont even believe for a second that you can muster up any reasonable amount of evidence track to prove this is any more than such a minority that i could count on my fingers.

Almost half of all “i never said that” comments ive read throughout my internet presence have just tried to deflect an accusation that was never thrown at them to begin with.

I was paraphrasing you, this is the part where it gets tricky to trust people to argue in good faith or not. but sure, if you want to be uptight it is what it is.

However, if you cut the sentence and leave it with “Well i dont have this issue” only, it still has the same effect that i was trying to explain above.

In the ideal world Blizzard would parse everything out themselves, but we are so far away from any ideal situation, so far away from any appropriate and good QA support, so far away from any legit care, that in my opinion in specific situation where you comment certain things under peoples threads, you’re actually, genuinely not providing anything fruitful other than stating you dont have the problem.

When a thread is made for someone to discuss their problem, let them discuss, their problem.

I dont think their attempt to fix this problem was related to the FPS issue, its more complicated than that, they tried to fix the animated textures for classic which happens for everyone. the problem is, their attempt at fixing this caused fps problems.

So no your example was just wrong.

This issue is not fixed, yet they claim it is. good job lizzards.

There is no real QA for RF, and we both know that :stuck_out_tongue:

Ive rarely seen you investigate problems for Reforged that are meaningful in a deep way, most of your reports and bugfinding has essentially been of insignificant quality or some very basic and barebones thing that the simplest of people could figure out on themselves.

Normally, as an avid bughunter i would never talk down to any person finding the smallest of things, but there is a difference between “any person” and someone who’s gloating about what they’ve found even though its never been anything significant and then claim people should appreciate you for it.

People should appreciate the guy who made a video literally explaining the entire mdx1100 problem for Blizzard but they ignore him. and he doesn’t even gloat about it. Thats next level.

Focusing on the problem itself is 1 billion times more fruitful in the CURRENT STATE OF REFORGEDs development than being an eyesore under peoples threads.

Ideally, CaptainJack would be right, but like i highlighted above, we are not in an ideal scenario, we are trying to bargin the future of our game with little more than sticks and harshlanguage. as Kael would put it.

And i for one believe there is no way we dont get our problems overlooked by an already watered down and careless service that blizzard has shown for this game because we aren’t even able to catapult our problems to blizzard, problems that do exist but not everyone is having, because people like CptJack just keep repeating the same fruitless thing over and over again.

Mind you, this idea i have is not exclusively the main contributor, like BrotherRoga said, its a partial contributor, but the debate got so big because someone denied that it even exists.

99

I do let them discuss their problem. The issue is relevant to me even if I can’t reproduce it, and I of coiurse do desire to see bugs get fixed. Which is why I post. I don’t know why none of you can wrap your heads around this idea that the scope of an issue is important for finding its resolution.

It was, since they specifically noted in their patch notes a fix for FPS issues for “some users.”

So no, my example was just correct.

I didn’t say they did fix it, but this very line you quoted is the one I was referring to. So clearly those “lizards” did do something, even if it didn’t end up addressing the problem in its entirety.

Sorry you’re not seeing this, but it’s been the case every time. Especially with regard to the FPS issues, I’ve tested it the same way many other people have, and even multiple times (which is how we all eventually found that the “reduce mouse lag” option was making the problem worse).

and someone who’s gloating about what they’ve found even though its never

Pointing things out to disprove people who are ALREADY critical of you is not “gloating.” While I am happy to contribute, I’m not out looking for a medal or award or anything.
I am not that person and do not “gloat,” ever. I am 100% purely defending myself against dubious and false accusations.

What’s even more frustrating about all of this is I previously discovered, and admitted in multiple posts across multiple threads, that I made an error and that I too was seeing an impact from this problem (due to inconsistent settings across the PTR and live versions). And yet we’re all here still arguing about how horrible I am/was for ever saying I didn’t have the problem (when it turns out, I do).

100

I’m aware. That being said, Blizzard’s QA still leaves a LOT to be desired ever since Activision assumed full control over them.

1 Like
101

I don’t think anyone out there disagrees with that.

1 Like
102

This issue started when people started being annoyed at you for discussing a problem by not contributing anything other than stating you have none. remember that.

The attempt to fix the FPS issue was caused by the attempt to fix classic water textures, until it was reverted but somehow done so poorly. that’s not the only FPS issue in the game, just one aspect of it.

You wont see my direct reporting either unless you know the amount of stuff i did in the background and also the people who reported bugs from my writing upon my request, but i just scooped the bug reports section using your filters and didn’t see much, that’s why i brought it up.

Say what you will, this will never stick with me:

Any other forum, my efforts to investigate bug reports FOR FREE for studios I don’t even work for would be actually appreciated.

Lot more people who did lot more reporting didn’t write how they should be appreciated.

Dont get too worked up about that part because people usually dont check if you remedied some errors in a PTR vs the more numerous other action you did but thats just a minor point, i think at this point you kind of understand the idea of what i mean with this whole deal.

I wasn’t able to come here for over weeks, and i didn’t do it not because i felt like “its not worth it” but because i thought you kind of understood the gist of the idea even though i was expecting you to reply to me in full as usual.

I think we’re drifting into the zone of never getting so many minor and major bugs fixed. not like it matters. not until we have a better team in blizzard.

1 Like
103

I don’t normally, either. But I said this purely because of the way people are speaking to me. I’m doing a good thing, even though you can’t see it. I’m sorry it has to be that way, but that’s not within my control.

Like I said, I’m defending myself against allegations. I’m not asking for people to praise me, I’m just asking that people understand how QA works and how I’m contributing and to stop attacking me for trying to do a good thing.

If this doesn’t get fixed, it’s definitely not because I made a post about it, its because of Blizzard’s inaction on anything at all.