Warcraft III: Reforged PTR Version 1.36 -- Updated May 3

Great to see Warcraft 3 receiving the love it deserves!

Just some constructive feedback:

  • Arcane Tower Feedback increased from 12 to 18 on heroes.

This tower would serve HU better killing summons faster rather than burning more mana (e.g. UD will always send in skellies first to tank arcane followed by nova/coil and get out).

  • Knight’s Sundering Blades bonus reduced from 15 to 10%.

This should have been removed from the game altogether once it was “researched by default”. Just balance the vanilla unit instead. There is no need for extra dmg vs medium armor by a unit that already does extra dmg to medium armor!

  • Troll headhunter hit points reduced from 375 to 350.

Don’t know what is the reason for this change, orc is only at an advantage vs HU, but this wouldn’t fix it.

  • Claws of attack +5 damage reduced to +4.

It was already questionable to go from +6 to +5. Claws are balanced as they are, improve gloves of haste instead, change the circlet to give +1 to all stats with +2 going to primary attribute only. And make cloak of shadows give 5% evasion.

  • Lighting Shield removed from the item table.

Why not balance instead of deleting?

Here are tweaks I think are needed to fix the core problems in these three imbalanced match-ups.

HU vs ORC

Human players have two main options, rifles or breakers combined with casters. - Riflemen die very easily to ensnare, stomp, chain lightning when the orc heroes get high levels. But making rifles stronger would mess up HU vs NE.

  • Breakers on the other hand deal so little dmg to the orc army that orc can just ignore them in most cases and focus fire heroes/casters without any meaningful punishment. Conclusion: Give breakers more dps, which would also aid HU against UD and NE.

HU vs UD

HU needs a lot of time to get a strong late game army, while ironically becoming too strong if the ideal composition is achieved (on the rare occasion that happens vs top UD players). This leads to a scenario where the game is hinging on whether the HU player can survive 20+ min (with expo) and win or UD will manage to end the game before that. Devs have been trying to solve this match-up by improving late game HU, but that doesn’t address the core issue.

  • Solve this by making it possible to hide two peasants inside a farm to reduce early losses. Make arcane tower at least twice as effective vs summons, remove sundering blades, increase breaker dps as stated earlier and decrease rod of necromancy to 3 charges.

NE vs UD

Because NE struggles to compete with UD on equal income long term, they have to expand. But they can only achieve this on Tier 1 as their Tier 2 against UD is too weak and they would fall to a tier 3 push (on equal economy).

  • Solution: give dryads +1 armor to help fighting vs fiends and gargs and giving NE a chance staying on one base. 2nd problem is that UD hero focus is too strong. Nova target dmg should be a bit lower to make it more of an AOE spell rather than single target nuke. And give Warden +2 strength boost, her HP is too low.

PS. - Some extra suggestions I think would greatly improve this game:

  • Zeppelins should not be able to carry 8 Druids of tha claw! “Doom drops” ruin the NE mirror, it’s not fun to watch, and it’s frustrating to watch a player playing much better than his opponent and then lose because of a lame bear drop in the base. It is imbarrasing that this is still in the game after 20+ years. (All units above 3 supply should take 2 slots in the zeppelin)
  • Cold arrow slow effect should be nerfed or mana cost increased. (Naga is too efficient and has mana for an arrow 99% of the time)
  • Nerubian tower slow effect should be nerfed. It’s way too strong for it’s price. (often in the early game you can’t engage the expo once there is a nerubian tower up.
  • Necromancer should start with a weaker cripple spell as initiate, followed by raise dead as adept and improved unholy frenzy as master (with HP drain removed). Here’s my reasoning: Necros in their current version are only viable in “all in” pushes. This is due to their ineffectiveness in low numbers without training. They aren’t a good return on investment with rod of necromancy being a better option for skellies and unholy frenzy being too costly (temple, training, 2 necros=545 gold). If necros can come out and actually be useful right away without training in low numbers then you can actually consider investing in training later on as you are utilizing the unit throughout the game.
  • Troll witch doctor should have a weaker version of the healing ward as adept instead of stasis ward. It would allow orc to be more flexible late game and not rely on shadow hunter so much.
  • Liquid Fire upgrade should increase the effect of unstable concoction to make bats viable vs destroyers and gryphons.
  • Tauren Totem needs to be constructed faster for the sake of both spirit walkers and taurens seeing some play.
  • Mountain giants taunt cooldown could be reduced since you removed double taunt.
  • Priests should be able to heal from further away.
  • Frost Wyrm need to be cheaper to see some play.
  • Death Knight death coil should cost more mana (it’s too cheap for it’s value and the original devs were obviously thinking that the DK would be using 2 spells (not just coil) and therefore the mana cost for them was quite low)
  • Crypt Lord impale needs either a buff or mana cost reduction.
  • Dreadlord should get +2 agility buff
  • Bloodmage should get +2 to all stats
  • Ritual dagger should cost a bit more but give some mana regen as well (if implemented however, some UD heroes intelligence need to be adjusted accordingly)

Hope you take my feedback into consideration!

I disagree. The mana of Immolation needs to be increased. Immolation is a strong skill in 1.29. People use it quite often. People stop using it only becasue the buff of keep makes it a even stronger hero. Now the dps of immolation is going to be 20% more than 1.29, like 10 mana. So make the mana cost 20% more than 1.29. Also, please revert the activation mana cost too.

2 Likes

No way! Even now footman too strong vs wisp and archer, in early rush the 2 moon well capacity is dropping fast when footman hit archer near.

Why you do not think about NE-HU early rush games?

Better Do not allow fast Altar, (you can allow other fast buildings , townhall or barracks) but do NOT allow fast Altar!
Elf struggle on 50 less wood at startup => in some situations altar is made after aow and 2 wells so Human can have hero while NE not even finish altar of elders.

Than those 2 moon wells sure cannot defend 10 wisps, the best players can max interchange 5 of them with 5 from gold mine once. and wait for ally’s to help.
And if Human hero damage too high compared to wisp life !

Also if 2x HU rush 1 NE, game over! Until your ally came, base is destroyed or seriously crippled.

Thanks, might actually play again with dh nerf. The +1+1+1 item felt like a dead item slot to be sold for circlet (compared to mantle/gloves which won’t be sold). There was nothing wrong with circlet dropping (on level 1 heroes it’s .9% less dps than mantle on AM, 4.4 dps less than boots of agility on BM). I don’t mind the arcane tower buff but isn’t the whining because losing workers feels bad? Maybe peasants can cost 70g that would buff 1 base +40g (8 on w) 2 base +75g (10w 5g) if one died in 2 base it would be compensated. But there’s probably no stopping the whine. I can’t speak to “balance” since it doesn’t exist in an asymmetrical game with opponents of varying skill levels.

Hopefully a future ptr can add more strategic diversity instead of just numbers tweaking. Many will dislike the creativity in the rest of this, but I tried to give every race something new and for a reason.

Necromancer - New passive: Improved Spirit Touch - any necro spell gives a buff to a nearby obsidian statue. Increasing spirit touch to be over time, as if it were 3 statues cycled. Duration tbd. Reason: Makes it a better support unit. An alternative to producing multiple statues.

Unholy frenzy - single target dispel. Reason: an alternative to destroyers and all races have more than one way to dispel. Without the other passive I don’t think this will be competitive with making more statues and destroyers.

Druid of the Claw - Roar: add spell reduction so bears take less damage. Could be a physical buff tied to roar with a different duration, a passive upgrade, or just for the one bear who casts. Reason: Weak to spells in NvU and NvH. Needs buff to lessen mass air or mass dryad vs UD.

Sorceress - Invisibility: sorc and priest spell casts no longer break invisibility. Units are not seen or targetable unless revealed, dispelled or they auto attack. Reason: Gives casters a defensive buff especially to ranged spells. Buying dust, reveal or a detection unit is a counter. Seems op yet it is mana that has to be used defensively so potentially less slow.

Witch Doctor - Sentry Ward: now movable like a shade as the witch doctor channels. Costs 0 mana to cast but costs 50 to place the sentry on the ground. Reason: They aren’t picked enough compared to other casters. Gives them a use without spending mana. General buff to orc scouting and reactive play.

Now other Heroes that should get buffs to lesser used spells like immolation did.
Archmage - Blizzard - cost 15 mana per wave and only first 5 waves (75 mana) require a channel. (Maybe nerf damage for more mana utility). Reason: The dps is really high on this spell but water with aura is required for creeping to not lose hp. Could facilitate 1/1/1 builds more often and spending only 2 or 3 waves of mana to creep. Needs a longer cooldown at least 10s to compensate.

Blood Mage - Banish - lasts 2 times longer on summons. 12/15/18 to 24/30/36. Reason: More viability as first hero especially in mirror. Siphon mana nerf should have been compensated elsewhere since he is rare even compared to Paladin.

Death Knight - Death Pact - creates 2/4/6 corpses even when used on friendly summons. Creates aoe dot in area for 50/75/100 damage over 3 seconds. Reason: This allows corpses to be created in a new way, by killing a summon. A little damage to make it more fun.

Potm - Searing Arrow - can hit multiple targets like 2/3/4 at reduced damage. Doesn’t work with orb. Reason: DH needs more competition in mirror. Better synergy with huntress aoe style.

Owl Scout - can rest on a tree becoming an owl scout sentinel. While on a tree the surrounding area acts as if night time so shadowmeld, moonwell regen and unit regen increased. Reason: Potm is a support hero but aura/owl isn’t enough compared to other support heroes.

Blademaster - revert mirror image damage and give it a defense buff like evasion for a few seconds. Could cast WW if skilled if it didn’t deal damage. Reason: BM doesn’t need more damage he needs protection from being nuked in one second without invul or SH. MI should be a spell dodge, scout and tank.

Well that was a waste of time but it was more interesting to think about than +1 or -1.

*few edits of imaginary numbers because hypothetical discussion is apparently worthy of ridicule by the main content creator of this game. It’s a difficult task to add to the game without changing it too much, good luck!

1 Like

Quick heads up: In the latest PTR build we still appear to have 5 vetoes instead of 3. I assume this is just an oversight?

Thanks!

and do not forget, If you add new units, I want some:

  • For NE: add Stalkers - with fast blink ability and partial invisibility at night time.
  • For Orcs: add Banelings - when explode they divide into smaller ones which cause smaller explosions later.
  • For Humans: add some Liberators - would be a great defense support unit!
  • Ud does not need anything!
  • Finally add a dark pylon to hide all those failed updates since Frozen Throne came out (who fixed the real balance issues of RoC). Also the dark pylon can recall the good old state of FT.

Thank you so much for fixing this bug! You saved the custom maps community!

2 Likes

Great updates. Maybe fix setting many unit, item, ability custom fields with natives and fix the natives which get item tooltips etc which return icon paths instead at the moment.

1 Like

A few days ago, the player “agent” collected statistics on w3champions for the 14th season. I cannot add screenshots here because unfortunately links cannot be inserted here. I will provide the numbers manually:
This is the statistics on w3champions for season 14. It includes games that lasted over 3 minutes, played by players who reached an MMR of at least 2350 at least once.:
|ExH 61.01% 626|400|
|ExO 52.71% 632|567|
|ExU 40.21% 415|617|
|HxE 38.99% 400|626|
|HxO 47.79% 292|319|
|HxU 44.88% 263|323|
|OxE 47.29% 567|632|
|OxH 52.21% 319|292|
|OxU 44.90% 343|421|
|UxE 59.79% 617|415|
|UxH 55.12% 323|263|
|UxO 55.10% 421|343|

This is the same data, but with wins and losses removed from all three of Happy’s accounts.
|ExH 61.01% 626|400|
|ExO 52.71% 632|567|
|ExU 51.04% 342|328|
|HxE 38.99% 400|626|
|HxO 47.79% 292|319|
|HxU 58.59% 232|164|
|OxE 47.29% 567|632|
|OxH 52.21% 319|292|
|OxU 55.51% 292|234|
|UxE 48.96% 328|342|
|UxH 41.41% 164|232|
|UxO 44.49% 234|292|

Humans won 38.9% of matches against Elves with a sample size of 1000 games with MMR >2350.
That’s all you need to know about the endless tears of the elves.

5 Likes

The problem with this is it might turn towering from a silly gimmick you pull on people who aren’t paying attention to a more viable strategy I think. You can build and upgrade towers faster if you make any part of it cheaper.

  • Immolation mana drain per tick increased from 7 to 8.

The DH is still too strong for creeping or harassing at the early stage. You should decrease the damage and limit the number of units this skill can influence, say 3.

Arcane Tower of Human is still too weak to protect the DH harassing. The building time/cost of wood should be decreased/ HP gets increased. Currently if Human builds one Arcane tower at home, then there is no wood to expand. The 50 cost of wood should be decreased.

2 Likes

Night elf should be dramatically nerfed. It’s ridiculous for a race having dramatic advantage over all three other races.

There are too many things of NE that should be nerfed: Immolation, recovery skill of Spring wells, ancient protectors.

1 Like

very nice evidence. Definitely HUM and UD need some buff and NE needs huge nerf.

2 Likes

Those statistics not relevant. If you remove some of data, and take only what you want - without Happy’s and what else you removed there … I do not trust your statistics ! And even if good 40 vs 60 not significant - too close to mid 50% (So is not 20 vs 80, paretto - or other known stat pattern)

There are situations (eary game NE HU) where Hu needs nerf not elf.
Than in late game you can compensate somehow, nerf the NE and boost HU (but Just in LATE GAME) !!!

1 Like

Please add an abilityintegerlevelfield for Black Arrow which defines the maximum target creep level and can be changed from the natively coded level 5. It would help many custom maps and make a custom Black Arrow System redundant.

Please add a gameplay constant for the maximum number of hero abilities to increase it from 5 or just increase it by default.

1 Like

Another minor issue - when browsing the options in Singleplayer the game speed and communication categories appear on the same line, see example below:

https://imgur.com/a/v8deMwP

ud is favoured against ne, it’s not that simple

The Elf heroes, few units and buildings need buff and rework.
  1. Demon Hunter: return +1 agility in base stade.
  2. Keeper of the Grove: Keeper of the Grove base Intelligence from 18 to 19 and Entangling Roots cast range on 700 with lvl 2. Increased treants damage base from 14 to 16. Thorns aura also work equally against melee units as well as long-range units.
  3. Potm: Buff owl scout, also need buff searing arrows and base attack cooldown reduced from 2.33 to 2.00. Hide: duration for Potm from 1.5 to 1.0 second.
  4. Warden: Buff intelligence from 16 to 17. Fan of knife unit cap 5\6\7 and buff fan of knifes from 75/125/190 to 85/135/200. Agility on +1. Shadow Strike mana cost return from 75 to 65. Reduce manna cost for Blink level 3. Warden has used 4 spells and solo tanky hero so I think it will not hurt to give she’s a little bit buff spells and also that this hero survives at the end of the game. Hide fade duration from 1.5 to 1.0 second.

Buff hp for wisps and back for them mana lose to units heroes from 40 to 45 and hp from 120 to 130 hp. Was buff hp for peons, acolytes and peasants so please buff hp for wisps too.

                             So now about units.

Hide duration for archers and hunts from 1.5 to 1.0.
Dryads: buff hp for Dryads HP from 435 to 500 and buff Abolish Magic damage from 250 350. Reduce the experience gain from Dryads from Level 3 (60xp) to Level 2 (40 xp)

Druid of the Claw( Bear Form): return and add +1 attack damage for druid of the Claw(Bear Form).

Mountain Giant: Make it so that the elf players can produce MG’s without shop. Give for Mountain Giants Resistant Skin or Hardened Skin default and Mountain Giant supply reduced from 7 back to 6. Also after nerf double taunt, this units no used and no playble in 1vs1, so recuced for mgs from 14 to 7 second cooldown taunts. Also please buff harderen skin to 10 with 2 base armors, because this units no playble in 1vs1 in pro lvls.

Chimaera: movement speed return from 250 to 270.

Now about the buildings: Tree of lifes buff Nature’s Blessing Armor Bonus on +2.
Nature blessing upgrade cost reduce from 150 gold 200 wood to 100 gold and 150 wood. Tree of life build time reduce from 120 to 110.
Tree of life start with 11 food supplied.
The next build Ancient of War: base attack increases from 36 to 40.
Chimaera Roost: Build time reduce from 60 to 50 second.

1 Like

What about Bloodmage? Manacost Flame Strike is still 135, too much, after nerfes Siphon mana, Brilliance aura and Potions of Mana. Maybe it should be lowered to 115 or 120?

Dear WC3 Team,

Can you PLEASE revisit the current matchmaking algorithm? It consistently and reliably creates bad matches by picking 4 (6, 8) players and matching the lowest ones to one side and the highest ones to the other, which means that one team is always clearly favored to win and the other is almost certain to lose. The point of matchmaking systems, normally, is to try to create balanced matches, not lopsided ones.

1 Like