Warcraft III: Reforged PTR - Version 1.35.0

PTR Discussion and Bug Report
293

You typed the wrong numbers, don’t try now.
Storm Bolt it’s not just a damage Skills, but also a 5/3 seconds stun, which is huge.
And at lvl 3 is 310 damage, not what you typed.
MK also have Bash, that stuns + do extra damage.
On top of that it also have Clap, which do a lot of AOE damage.

Lich AOE is 200 at all level, so unless you are garbage at the game, and intentionally put all of your unit together, and not spread them, Lich won’t hit more than 1, at best 2 units.

Good luck compare it to any AOE spells in the game. You can’t.

You also couldn’t argue with any of my arguments, cause you can’t say anything, cause i’m 100% right.

UD is by far the worst race, and historically has always been like that.
Now stop wasting my time.

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294

News to me. great for trapping heroes with your units and bursting them down. I see it far too often to buy your “99.99% unusable” argument.
I don’t know who Happy is, I’m assuming you’re talking about the pro scene, but different things have different uses and levels of effectiveness at different levels of play, because pro players approach games like this from a very different angle from most of us. Step down to run of the mill player territory and what you call crap suddenly becomes a lot more useful due to how people respond to different situations.

Your opinion on how good the heroes are is irrelevant. UD has multiple disables and to pretend they don’t exist because you don’t like the heroes is folly. We’re not even factoring the neutral heroes here either, naga sea witch being one of the most popular according to the data I’ve seen, with her ice arrows great to catch runners. Tinker has stuns, pretty sure im missing something else.

currently available win rate data doesn’t really support this supposition.
we’ve had people go on and on on this forum and particularly this thread about how OP the Lich is, It can’t be that OP if UD is the “worst race and always has been?”

Stop making dubious statements and we won’t have anything more to talk about :slight_smile:

295

What is the available win rate data on battle.net or W3C? And what does it suggest?
I don’t have the data. I did hear on w3c, except Happy and 120, among top 500 player, UD have the worst win rate, only like 30%. Historically UD is the least played race among top players. Human have SKY/INFI/TH000, NE have Moon/LAWLIET, ORC have Grubby/Focus/Lyn/FLY. They both won multiple titles, including WCG. Happy and 120 only shine now because all these players mention above are now 35+ or 40+ years old. And Happy/120 are much younger and are at peak now. If INFI MOON LYNN are at prime age now, they would easily win UD in 1.35.

296

And to Blizzard team who handle the balance update, If 1.30+ want UD to be more diverse, it has failed to deliver. And please do some research on plays on battle.net, win rate, unit usage rate etc.
UD players across all levels still rely on the same old play, year after years. Ghoul/Fiend+statue+destroyer+DK&LITCH+orb of corruption, that is it, that is all UD have. And among these units, only Ghould receive a minor buff, all other units are nerfed since 1.30
Banshee Necromancer does not even matter, UD players among all levels rarely use them. And if they do use them and win, they could have win in an easier manner if they don’t use them, How ironic.
And Frost Wyrm is nurfed so badly and it become unusable since 1.34.
So 1.30+ UD is worse than 1.28 UD. 1.34 UD did receive Minor expansion buff, but 1.35 is going to revert it. What a joke. I suggest all UD players after 1.35 patch, delete this game or switch to another race for a much better experience.
And if anyone find first nova so imba, use UD then. I always find Orc is good and use ORC as the main option now, a much better experience.

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297

W3C is the only place you can easily get this kind of data, unless there’s a scraper or something for battle.net data that I don’t know about.

The last numbers I looked at, about a month or so ago to be fair, indicated remarkably good balance. Human especially was very close to 50% in all matchups, with somewhat larger deviations in the other races, but if I recall correctly NE was last overall (but again, it was pretty close between all four. the current balance is way better than people seem to think)

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298

yes, its true… So mb better just move statue in temple of damned. Its open possibilities to buff meat wagons(really weak unit for 4!! limit) and mb slight abos. And make mages easy to use

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299

all these binary changes “take of some % her, add some % there” wont change anything in the catastrophic OvsNE and HUvsUD matchup.

could be wrong, but I highly doubt that.

300

Again same topic but: Please REVERT all changes to Siege Engine back to what it was in the summer.
Is one thing to change wood requirements from 50 to 40 or some damage, but entirely different what you did with Siege Engine!
You unbalanced the game !

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301

Hello again, Blizzard & community,

In this post (my 2nd) i will post rest of my ideas.

You wanted to decrease Holy Light cd. but what I think you should do is to decrease casting time of holy light.

302

It would be nice to slightly reduce the Staff of Preservation. For example, make for 150 for 3 charges. Either the cooldown is slightly higher, or the price is 200+. Because it’s a freebie.
In the late game, if the elf thinks of it, he buys 3 staffs = 450 gold, and uses them on cooldown. Units stop dying at all. Heroes teleport, heal, and return on a teleportation staff instantly. With the last buffs on the moonwells, the elf heals the unit and immediately sends him into battle. It turns out that this staff, in combination with exaggerated moonwells, is better than that of hums. Although the cost is incomparably cheaper, it is already on tier 2, the cooldown is less.
Or remove the last moonwell upgrade:
1.30.0 Moon Well mana regeneration at night increased from 1.25 to 1.50 per second.
With wells like this now, the staff of preservation doesn’t live up to its name, it has become a staff of instantaneous restoration, they never dry out.

And you need to add something human on the base. For comparison:
Elves have trees for creeping and defense, wisps for dispel (used throughout the game) wells with a late upgrade for healing
The undead have land to heal, main to slow, graveyard to skeletons.
Orcs have burrows for protection, and to save workers, with a strong t2 upgrade.
Humans? Militia… for? Initial creeping you lose a lot of wood and tier much later. After 1/3 of the game in the battle, the militia does nothing but experience to the enemy. If you do not put towers, then the base does not help the player in any way. Fast construction, expensive, and at this time, workers do not extract resources. For example, elves eat a free tree and that’s it.
To improve something in the protection of workers, I think it would not be right. Initially, have the workers harvest 15 wood in 10 hits. And rework the militia. This will make them usable in creeping, enemy tower building will reappear (all these strategies have sunk into oblivion, with your timing nerf in patch 1.30) and add a macro game

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303

bring back militia duration would be easer

304

You don’t know who Happy is, but talking about balance, oh my dear. Just speaks your level is below low and you got no clue what the heck you are talking about.

Game is balanced at highest level, always, aka PRO scene or high level of skill level.
But you also contribute the difference of skill level at the top, aka one player may dominate, but in most cases is because he is so much better than the rest and so on.

Dread Lord is the weakest Hero in the game by far. It’s garbage.
If you can’t play against Sleep, the problem is on you, and that speaks bad of your level.
Dread Lord at all levels is garbage hero.
UD has 2 usable Heroes and that are Lich and DK.
Lich is used as second in all matchups, and it’s only viable against HU as 1st.

And everyone knows that UD has zero disables, and don’t have a chase potential, that’s why they have strong nuke. If you were any good, you would have known that.

Also playing at low level anyone that is even level above can beat you with any strats he wants. So just because you are bad at the game and can’t bypass certain skills/mechanics, doesn’t mean they are strong, it means that you are bad, simple as that.

Again UD has ZERO disables, and top players now and in the past has shown that both DL and CL are beyond garbage and they are unused for a reason.

Just as UD is the least played race for a reason, aka the weakest in the long run, across all levels of play, and also UD require the most Micro to be efficient and perfect timing and execution.
It’s also super hard to make a comeback with UD, if you have a bad early game.

But explaining all of this to a player that is so bad, and biased is pointless, so stop wasting my time.
Next time i will just skip your post, cause you are obviously a troll or just highly biased or bad player.
Simple as that.

305

Since last patch you broke World Editor. Everytime i try to save my map i got an errors “Unknown compile error”(nothing changed since last succesful save, except terrain) . Oh god…why the heck you are so bad, blizzard?

306

Happy New Year, WC3 balance team!
Here is suggestions that might help on some hard issues:

  • Tank: Increase the medium armor or reverse it to fortified. Reasoning: tanks are more used against UD and NE. If they attack bases they will be very easilly repeled against UD because ghouls are always there and bears are also in every HUxNE match so it should not be difficult also to bust them. Just as reference, Tanks werent used against Orc because it was so easy for raiders to get them. Now every race will have a really easy counter for them and they will probably be unsuable.
  • Orb of fire: instead of increasing damage, reduce drastically cost (225?) since it is the worst orb or recover the splash damage (which should not stack with Pit Lord Cleave).
  • Staff of Sanctuary: I think it is a very nice staff and the price is was adequate.

Looking forward for the changes!

307

But that’s overall. Arguably you should look at the top lvl. That is where it is more important the game to be balanced (not saying that you should completely ignore the lower lvls). If u check +2200 mmr HU has 45% vs orc and UD. If you go a bit lower, at +2000mmr vs ORC goes up to 49.9%, which suggest is not that big of a problem, compared to the MU vs UD wich is at 46.1%

Another thing to look at is the amount of GM of each race. I do not say you should spect 12 players of each race. Especially with happy having top3 by himself. But HU has only 7 on GM. And of those, only two on the top 20.

Performance in tournaments is also very important. Humans have been doing very poorly in the last two years. An easy indicator is the earning distribution (you can check that on liquipedia). In 2021 the prize money from tournaments was something like 745k and humans won 104k (UD won 216k, NE 228k and ORCS 163k). In 2022 it was worse: the prize money from tournaments was something like 368k. Humans only won 25k, less than 10% (UD won 136k, NE 72k and ORCS 61k). You can check in more detail, checking all the top tournaments. But the conclusion is pretty much the same.

I agree that the game is better balanced than people think. But the numbers do suggest that HU is underpowered in general, UD a bit overpowered in general, and that the match up NE vs ORC favors the NE. Although i’m no that sure about this last thing, maybe that is as remo says “the MU is balanced, it’s just harder for the ORC to execute”. In that case it does need some fix to make it easier for the orc (not necessarily stronger) or harder for the NE.

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308

Possible solution: Make sure you have turned on Enable JassHelper under the JassHelper tab inside of the Trigger Editor. This is now off by default which will cause problems.

309

I don’t know, or care, who happy is, but that knowledge is not required to talk about balance. Anybody can talk about balance, and you don’t get to decide who can and can’t.

You don’t have to be a pro to talk about balance either. Balance affects everyone, not just pros, and there can be issues that differ at different levels of play. Thus, everyone’s feelings on balance matter.

Have you ever seen a league of legends balance patch? They don’t just look at the pro data to make balance decisions. They will discuss all the changes they’re making and what those changes are intended to accomplish. Very often you’ll see things like "This ability is performing as intended at the professional level, but is over/underpowered at bronze/silver/whatever tier. This change is designed to do X for the average player while retaining Y for the pro player.

You can write 100 pages about how my opinion doesnt matter because I don’t know who Happy is, or that I’m not a high level player. But you are wrong, and you will always be wrong. All levels of play should be considered because balance changes will affect all levels of play, and not always in the same ways.

Also: the balance data from W3C that I looked at was based on the higher levels. So Again, I don’t know who mr. happy is, but the available data says the balance is not in a terrible place right now.

310

But a lot of this stats depends on the player itself also how many of this players are playing X or Y race.
Also currently no one is on Happy level skill wise. Currently HU players are absolutely terrible. Not a single one that is top notch. Night Elf players as well are dog**** in terms of micro.

On the Orc side, only Lyn is really top player. Focus is so, so, but he is very inconsistent.

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311

Yeah it’s require if you don’t know who the best player is. Balance is done at the highest possible level, and it’s should be, and take the Skill gaps between the players + how much better X or Y player is, that influence the certain matchups.

We are talking about WC3, and i stopped reading the moment you mention LOL. You have to be trolling and i won’t waste my times with trolling.

312

A counter argument to that is that infi and th000 stopped playing HU cause of balance. Ofc they not playing makes the race even weaker, but they are not idiots, they won’t play HU when the balance is like this.

I agree that Happy is the best player atm. But his win rate is ridiculous, even for a dominant player. In 2022 he faced Lyn 8 times on Bo5 or longer series, Happy won 6 times, Lyn won 1 time and they tied once. I do think Happy is stronger than Lyn atm, but a 6-1-1 score is a larger difference than it should be (in my opinion, which of course may be incorrect). The score against moon is 7-3. This one is closer, but being 4 series up is a clear dominance. On the other hand, against 120 is 4-4. The records against lyn and moon should look more like that one, they should be something like 6-4 or 5-3, not 6-1. The 7-3 score is not that bad, but it is bad if you consider that it is the best record of a non undead player against happy on 2022 (I think soin also has a 7-3 or a 6-3).

As for the humans, it is true that chaemiko and sok are not at the lvl of happy and lyn, but if you watch their games or streams you can tell they are very very good. They should have way more success than they have. On 2022 chamiko didnt even took a map from happy on series. He lost 4-0, 4-0, 4-0, 3-0 and 4-0. Sok only took a map on 2022, he lost 4-0, 2-0, 2-0, 2-1. Again, for me that is a larger difference than it should be. Im not saying they are at the lvl of happy, but they are on a lvl that should allow them to take more than 1 map (between the two).

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