ok, statues op.
nerf their hp to 500 from 550 some patches ago is ok
nerf mana from 3 to 2 is painful, but ok
nerf +50% xp for kill, with prev. nerfs… over the top, obviously.
even for non-ud player
Its ud t2, weakest point, its not t3 unit.
Need to keep in mind orc vs ud matchup, - bm 3 lvl and not a single statue will survive. With those xp they became primary, but absolutly unhealble 270 move speed units.
Statue can be nerfed much more smarter, than just become a tomes of exp, but with same spell effects.
Besides, ud t3 is open to nerfs
And some things at t1 like rod or even spirit towers
But statue is t2 unit. And its very strange to make weak side (t2) even weaker, but no changes at strong side (t3)
The fact is that the Humans also lose to the Orcs and the Elves. At the same time, the undead towards the orcs and elves are approximately in balance. Also, if the undead were an unbalanced race, we would have many players on it, but this is not so. You are ud player?
Secondly, there are point changes, like blade illusions, which strategies with Farseer will not be affected. And there are global changes, like Moon Well mana regeneration at night increased from 1.25 to 1.50 per second. at 1.30. Or the statues. This change affects all strategies of the race. And what should a player do now, when there was a balance against an orc and an elf, and now there is a strong nerf? Again, you are trying to object, but you cannot answer why Crypt Lord and Dreadlord, necromancers and banshees are needed without mana? Is it adding variety?
The balancer needed to globally improve the Humans, and make minor changes to the rest of the races. And he makes minor edits for people and a global incomprehensible nerf for a weak race. At the same time, changes to the Immolation buff will only make things worse for Humans. (because it will only be used against the human economy) Or do you think the Mechanical Critter sight range increased from 350 to 500. will help win the orc?
Globally, it was possible to improve the militia of the humans, and the extraction of wood (for 10 hits 11 or 12 wood), because even 15 slaves on a tree are not enough, this will slightly improve all the strategies of the humans. Let’s say for elves, dispell wisp can greatly help win the battle even on t3. The undead have 3 ghouls from the tree. And the humans are slaves on wood, who only give what the exp.
p.s. i play orc
At the moment humans do not have tier S players, so yes, they are losing vs every race. But if you check the stats of chaemiko and sok vs tier S ORC or NE (like lyn or moon), their numbers are not nearly as bad.
If you want to check other MU, in 2022 Happy faced Lyn 8 times on Bo5 or longer series, Happy won 6 times, Lyn won 1 time and they tied once. I do think Happy is stronger than Lyn atm, but a 6-1-1 score is a larger difference than it should be (in my opinion, which of course may be incorrect). The score against moon is 7-3. This one is closer, but being 4 series up is a clear dominance. On the other hand, against 120 is 4-4. I do think happy is the best player atm, but the only other player with decent record against him is another undead
If you want to go back even further, when we had ESL on the european region the players that gave the most trouble to happy were xlord, foggy and vortix… yes a dude that came back for like 2 months gave trouble to happy. But maybe that is going too far back
Crypt Lord and Dreadlord and banshees will be very much playable after this patch. CL still will be viable as first hero vs HU (map dependent ofc) and DL as a 3rd hero on some situations. Banshees are still good, but no longer will counter lvl 5 heroes offensive spells by themselves (if the oponnent has dispell). Necromancers could use a rework. A stronger tier 2 UD would be nice. But I would also argue that other races should be able to attack undead bases, so a weaker base defense for the UD would be good.
ps: I am a human player. But using undead I can easily defeat other human players that on mirror I would lose. This tells you… nothing, just maybe a bit about balance at the very low 1500-1600mmr xD
so mb better just cancel one or few previous human nerfs? That made the human so weaker. There was:
Militia 45->40 sec nerf
Am elem
Am aura
Priest dispel (if t2 control magic causes this nerf - its again t3. So why dispel nerf stiil stay)
Breakers’s spellsteal
Mk bolt/clap
The nerfs/buffs that destroyed HU vs UD are the tanks nerfs combined with the new strenght of UD 2 base. I dont want to see those changes reverted (at least most of them, I do think accos should be a bit easier to kill).
The major problem of this MU is that, even if the HU manages to be in a decent position with a bit of a lead, can not close it. Humans do not have catch vs UD other than 5 sec stun in stormbolt (and have a slow army) nor can attack an UD base. Thus, is hard to translate the advantage into a win, or map control that allows you to get a bigger advantage. So, the UD can dodge the HU and/or harras the HU till the ultra late game, when UD is always favored atm.
This is whitout countint that in the early game (at least vs lich expo), the undead is also very favored. If the HU misspositions once in the map, loses 4-6 peons. The UD peons are stronger, faster and have a better base defense, so they can afford to make mistakes.
It is not an easy MU to fix (without breaking some other MU) if we want to keep it 2 base vs 2 base in most games. But buffing the elemental, aura and breaker spellsteal wont do much on this MU, and may break the others. The changes should aim to help the HU on early and ultralate game vs UD, reduce the mobility gap, improve the HU base defense or make the UD base more attackable. But as said, not easy to do this with out affecting other MUs.
I played with Foggy, Sonic, and Happy on small caps. On my opinion Happy has a different level of control.
Not so long ago, he took 50 series in a row in Show Caps. The first ~20 were on the main races, and then randoms, rule of changing races if won the match, etc… How do you propose to nerf Happy if he wins as an elf?
It’s a stupid idea to make a balance by seriously worsening the race and explaining this by the fact that 1 player on it wins. If there really is an imbalance, put the undead and repeat. Okay, top1 will be for Happy, for top2 they also give money. Easy.
By the way, we have an example of imbalance, on the keeper at 1.30. At this point, many players switched from Humans and Orcs. Many players have come out of inactive. In our community it was called adapt. Where does the same thing happen to the undead?
If you look at the patch logs. In 1.26 humans played well against elf and orc and lost heavily against undead. At the same time, we had players for people. And now there are no human players, not because they lose to the undead, but because they lose to everyone.
I do agree that Happy is the best. I’m just saying that his record does not reflect how much better he is compared with other players. He is the best player , playing the best race, which is bad for the show. And it is not only happy. If you check 120 (the other tier S UD) he also has a very good record. If you want you can go tournament by tournament, but to give you a general idea, in 2022 eer0 won over 47k in tournaments. He is the 2nd best on this ranking. Happy is first with over 94k. Colorful, Lyn, Focus and moon all have around 20-25k in earnings, half than eer0.
If you want more detail go and check tournament by tournament on liquipedia. You will see that on tier2 or higher tournaments, the most repeated final is happy vs eer0. And in most cases, whenever they both participated, both of them reached top 4.
Someone will argue ¨Its not that UD strong, is just that 120 and happy are that much better¨.I do agree that atm happy is better than lyn or moon by a decent margin, but I am not buying that about 120. He is on a similar lvl and in most cases it comes down to the shape they are in the day they play.
Please fix profile bug. My profile in particular is showing 37% win rate when in fact it would be closer to 65% I have over 1000 human losses and have no even played that many human games.
OMG children I can’t believe you’re crying over nerfs and buffs blah blah blah. I say worry about that later. I was thinking in a perfect world the rankings would work, there would be no big wait times, and I’m typing this while sitting on a Unicorn. 
- Fixed an issue where the custom game list names bleed into the ping category.
Awesome! This has been bugging me for a while. Hope to see more of these UI improvements in the upcomming updates.
Demon hunter immolation is played in 100% of games at the moment. It must be nerfed, otherwise people will just delete the game. It needs a 50% nerf at least.
That doesn’t make a 45% return Thorns Aura “ok”, that makes it even worse.
If melee units are struggling to compete against ranged units, buffing a counter to the melee units makes the situation worse, not better.
If Keepers of the Grove actually need a buff, it makes more sense to buff them elsewhere, or even to alter Thorns to have some diminished effect on ranged units; since that seems to be where you think the problem is.
Mate, u r arguing under the assumption that the ranged army meta is bad (or at least that it would be better to have more melee units on the meta). If you think that is the case, then this is a bad aura to buff, agree. Or maybe buff it, but with a rework as u say. But I’m not talking about which meta is better, only about balance.
To me, in pro-games, immolation or nova seem more problematic. How many games have been decided by thorns since the patch is out? not many (if any at all). DH first or lich first are good 1st hero choices that scale crazy good. Kotg is a good (maybe great) 1st hero pick, but the scale is decent at best.
ps: I do not like thorns, I think that is one of the skills that need a rework, I’m just saying it is not OP
This has nothing to do with whether a melee/ranged meta is bad. The entire point seems to have gone over your head.
We have a situation where the Keeper of the Grove is theoretically underperforming, but it is underperforming in a meta where ranged units, unaffected by Thorns, are dominant.
Buffing Thorns doesn’t help Keeper of the Grove at all in ranged versus ranged situations, so it is not the correct change to make Keepers of the Grove more useful in a ranged meta.
Why you not include the new patch notes on here?
It’s also about time you stop listen to B2W, as they are heavily biased, based on their audience preference, that all of them Happy, who is clearly 5x level at least the rest, and want UD nerfed.
UD is been completely death, since the 1.35 pathetic patch.
Remove all the nerfs to UD, rework DK ultimate, buff the Unholy Aura, as UD have only that advantage, as they don’t have a single DISABLE.
Buff/Rework Abominations.
Rework Necromancers completely.
Buff both DL and CL.
Nerf Banshee Anti-magic, should be weaker.
Nerf the Immolation on all levels, it’s way too strong.
And start judging buffing/nerfing a race, based on the race potential, potential counter, potential strong/weak point.
There is a thing player level in place, which will influence the game by a lot, so you cannot balance around that, not taking the difference in player level into consideration, which you did not.
Are you serious? Lich is only possible against HU. Nova cost 125 mana, and against DH is completely useless. Against Orc is completely useless as first hero.
Lich is also super squeeshe, and it’s DPS is low as *****. You need Orb, which is T3, and hell a lot of items in order Lich to become a decent DPS monster, and still DH outdamage the whole UD heroes and army alone …
And yeah he is 100% right, 45% dmg return is terribly design.
Just because Elf have terribly players nowadays, like HU, doesn’t mean the race is not completely broken. And just because they still not use the so OP “X” thing, doesn’t mean something is not broken.
Like just because someone doesn’t use the race to it’s full potential, doesn’t mean it’s a bad race.
No, u r missing my point. I just mentioned the power of thorns. On range meta old thorns was weak, and as it is now, it is still not strong. I do agree that the best solution would be a rework. But going back to old thorns would make it even weaker. That is worst than keeping it as it is.
I can’t argue with a person that says lich is only viable against HU. Totally playable on mirror and, on rare (very rare) occasions, used vs ORC. But the fact that u r not aware lich is playable in mirror says a lot about your knowledge of the game.