Warcraft III Lore retconning to match WoW is a terrible idea


#181

Uh, no. It was already stated that the “explosion” of fel energies that derivated on the mutation of the Draenei into the Broken and the Lost Ones weren’t residual fel energies, it was in fact a fel infused form of the red pox that afflicted the orcs as periodical plagues for years, wich in turn was based off the Curse of Sethe that transformed the Arakkoa from their avian form into the hunched form they have now, it took them a while to explain and retcon it a bit, but still I’m happy with the results, all of Draenor history ended very interesting in the end, a showing that not all retcons are bad, specially if they are made to improve the existing lore, not out of necessity for gameplay mechanics reasons, also, if they hear the community and decide to split the storylines into MMORPG and RTS, they’ll not only prolong the life of their most successful franchise, they’ll improve their existing lore and please the crowd while doing so.


#182

Yes. A post War3 explanation to resolve an inconsistency that existed in War3, namely due to a new shared history. This is revisionist history similar to the ‘Muradin’s dead’ change. You can say this is just an explanation of things we didnt know, but as far as the context of these things in Warcraft 3, these can be considered retcons to information we are shown.

Red mist was not a thing. Muradins amnesia was not a thing. The story in War3 is pretty clear in what it wants to show. Explanations made after the fact end up muddling that message.

My point is it had to be retconned, and you even admit it is a retcon. I didnt say it retcons are bad, I was literally bullet pointing retcons and here you are saying it took em a while to explain and retcon it a bit, so we both agree yes?


#183

Again just because Warcraft 3 fanbase is so much lower than World of Warcraft, do you really see any WoW fans here screaming for Warcraft IV? How the hell would you know that millions of them would flock to buy Warcraft IV, let alone mind that Warcraft IV would instead retell the events of WoW in much, MUCH better way than it was ever told in World of Warcraft or that they would demand the story to be continue whereever WoW would eventually end?

Again, that in turn would be full blown “**** you” from Blizzard to all those Warcraft III fans who either never played WoW and all its darn expanions over all these years. Again since WoW is completely other gense, they can just freaking go and assume that everyone who would want to play Warcraft IV would be up to speed with the lore (and the whole talk about whether WoW’s lore is actually good or not is irrelevant in this).

Ask most Warcraft RTS fans, and you have already seen what we think about, people here and across other forums/YT are almost in 100% agreement that if Warcraft IV happens its story MUST continue one way or another where Warcraft III: TFT ended…meanwhile do you even see WoW players who are happy with the game and lore demanding anything regarding another Warcraft RTS, let alone that they would have any interest to play it? Ye again, I know fully well there are those who have and could enjoy Warcraft both in MMO and RTS form, but honestly for ALL players, whether WoW or Warcraft III fans, the perfect compromise would be retelling the events of WoW in Warcraft IV, even if its events would only be included in the first game and then in expansions the story/lore would be extended beyond that…

So ye, if they would make completely alternative timeline, they would piss those WoW fans in the eye who would care about WC IV, but on other hand not continuing the story at all from WC III: The Frozen Throne would piss of us who have wanted Warcraft IV to happen in the first place for well over a decade now…

As Ive said already its unlikey Blizzard would ever able to satisfy everyone regardless what apporeach they might one day take with Warcraft IV (and that is one of the reasons why it might never happen), but as compromise retelling of WoW events is really the only solution, unless they would set the game prior to all the other games.

I dont believe either that they would just replace everything that has happened in WoW for one second, let alone that they would start running two different timelines side by side (again which is why WC IV wont likely ever happen as long as WoW is still going on), but make no mistake, if they would intend to piss uss Warcraft III fans in the eye by assuming that we know fully well, every little detail what has happened in WoW (or let alone that we liked it), then we will make Blizzard listen our opinion heard loud and clear…in fact that is what most of us are doing here already, in hopes that they might take notice what the most passionate fans of Warcraft III/RTS fans want

So in short I agree that Blizzard cant just throw away everything they developed over the years in WoW, but neither imho can they ignore the fact taht we are talking about two ENTIRELY different game genres, with VERY different kind of audience…and that no every Warcraft RTS fan is WoW fan and vice versa, but there are those who like both…that is why Warcraft IV’s storyline best be a compromise that would satisfy both parties.

Most of us fully agree here that WoW’s storyline could be so much improved in Warcraft IV, and I just hope that Blizzard would one day see it that way as well.


#184

Because of what is already happening to Reforged.

I agree that WC3 was the better story. I dont like the WoW story as it is inconsistent too. But the writing is on the wall as far as canon us concerned, and WoW is canon, otherwise Reforged would be Remastered and not bridging WoW elements into it.

You speak of all the respect to War3 that should be given yet ignore what is already going on right here? If they really respect War3, then nothing should be changed just like SC remaster.

And I spoke out on what I think WC4 would be, IMO it would treat War3 AND WoW as history whilr telling a new story. Just as WC2 moved to new and bigger places from WC1, and WC3 moved to new and bigger places with a new story from WC2. The actual stories told dont actually carry on the same Alliance or Horde. Its a different iteration each time. Even War3 had a less unified Alliance than we saw in Warcraft 2.

Point is, the compromise you are talking about is not the same as throwing away all WoW lore and going full ham alternate history, which I am arguing against.

Also, there is no ‘f___ you to all those Warcraft 3 fans who skipped WoW’ because like I said, the story wouldn’t be directly continuing WoW’s plot any more than Warcraft 3 directly continued the plot of Warcraft 2. They draw history from the series and loosely derive their starting point, but for the most part the Lordaeron we see in WC3 is not the same full blown 7 kingdom Alliance that we were introduced to, and the characters we know are completely fresh newcomers who carry the torch. Uther was the only character brought back from the series and he wasn’t even a playable character in WC2. The Horde was completely different, even with a massively revised Grom Hellscream. And the whole story was about leaving the lands that the original setting took place in. WC4 would not be jumping off straight after the events of the previous game; there will likely be a significant timeskip to allow the story to unfold as its own thing.

However, if you are referring to a group of Warcraft 3 players who are intentionally wanting to ignore WoW lore because they don’t see it as relevant to a potential WC4, then I would say this group is in denial because WoW is canon and everyone would need to stop drawing lines in the sand where they see fit. You can absolutely headcanon away stuff you don’t like, but you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist just like you can’t pretend the Knaak novels didn’t exist. Yes, Rhonin the Raptorwhisperer is unfortunately canon. It will remain that way until Blizzard states otherwise cough Medan cough

It’s not likely that WC4 would pander to WoW fans by remaking the story that those players spent the last 15+ years playing. Frankly, it doesn’t make much sense to do that since the story is already there in WoW (Especially with Classic being back). There’s nothing new to the hardcore enthusiasts like us who already know what happens. It’s not new to veteran RTS players who already know WoW lore, and it’s not new to WoW players who literally played through that all, so why remake it? It opens up the brand new game to criticism of having no new ideas or new direction to take the series.


#185

Well I can partly understand that, but if you just look at the feedback and how community has answered to the unofficial survey, I think its pretty clear that most Warcraft fans atleast from the RTS community want EXACTLY that, most of of us here want the story to continue ONE WAY or ANOTHER from WC 3: TFT…and again I dont even see WoW players to be vocal about Warcraft IV in the first place, so Im just saying, who should Blizzard listen? The Warcraft fans who would want to see Warcraft IV as soon as possible and would be there to buy it day-1 or WoW fans, many from again couldnt give a flying **** about Warcraft in RTS form…

And as for you trying to compare Warcraft 2’s situation with Warcraft III and Warcraft III to WC IV, its not really comparable in any way or form…Warcraft II had tiny amount of lore and characters to begin with compared to Warcraft III, let alone everything that has been added since…it would simply not be possible to simply put ALL of that aside as “minor background lore” for future events…Warcraft III wrote much of the Warcraft’s background lore with Warcraft IV the lore would rely much more heavily on whatever happened in the past and this would also include WoW and without those of us who dont know exactly all the events of World of Warcraft, I guarantee you, there would be points in story where me and countless others would feel completely lost…

So no, I think its utterly stupid and idiotic even try to compare that situation to Warcraft III and Warcraft II, as before Warcraft III the lore and the world was but tiny portion of what it is today. What you would want to see with Warcraft IV would require then pretty much almost reboot with the story, where things of the past have faded to nothing but legends and Azeroth would likely be completely and utterly different kind of place than what it is now. And I say **** that. Like Ive tried to say so many times, I wont accept anything less than the story to continue where Warcraft III: TFT ended, period and that is something that is reflected in most people’s opinions here… I could grudgingly accept story that is set prior toe vents of all the previous games, but then there is no really point calling it Warcraft IV in the first place imho.

Other than those options, I then would not have Warcraft IV at all, cause I see your kind of descrption of Warcraft IV even less likely and other hand I wont ever accept anything that would take place after WoW and would require the understanding of that lore and story and just accept everything how it happened there, limited by the crappy mechanics and design of freaking MMO game…


#186

Again, Reforged tells you right now which to listen to. Dalaran is being remade in WoWs image. Kael has green eyes.

A poll created for WC3 reddit and forums is not aimed at ‘Warcraft RTS’ fans, its polling at Warcraft 3’ fans. Make no mistake, the majority of Reforged sales will come from people who never played Warcraft 3, and thats because this is being designed to cater to new blood.

It is like polling Classic WoW players if they want to see QoL changes. The answer is obvious, and it wont reflect all the players who may be playing Classic WoW. If you poll SC players if they want to see a SC MMO what do you think the answer is?

If we really all got what we want, then Reforged would have NO CHANGES. Sovin a way, Reforged is already a big F U, if you choose to see it that way. Nothing we can do about it, except choose to accept or refuse it. We cant actually direct Blizzard to make no changes to WC3 or have WC4 start right after WC3 any more than we can tell Blizzard to stop making WoW because we think the story is bad.

Again, I acknowledge and share your sentiment, but lets not fool ourselves into thinking Blizzard will do things based on what the Classic players want. If you have been following the changes in Blizzard management recently, you would know they are shifting towards Activision style business practices. There is a low chance of them being the same company we rooted for 10 years ago.


#187

Well again its really brave to assume that all those WoW players would not be flanking to pre-order Warcraft III: Reforged :smiley: Ye right, not gonna happen, if you and Blizzard really have those kind of delusions…

I mean yes obviously some WoW players who never played Warcraft III will be buying it, but even then the retcons you are refering to are largerly minor stuff…even if Blizzard would not change those things, I dont think WoW players would even pay attention to them…

But anyhow since chances to WC IV remain as slim as ever as long as WoW continues to go on (and it most likely will continue to go on for quite many years yet), lets return to this discussion once we might have something concrete evidence that Blizzard is planning to make another Warcraft RTS game


#188

I don’t have a headcanon fanfic lol. Don’t insult me. I am only coming up with stuff off of the top of my head as examples to explain to Alexander how there’s actually a lot of lore just in vanilla WoW alone that could be used as inspiration for a possible WCIV plot.

I don’t think there could be peace in the end either. But I don’t think they’d rush to fight one another after having just fought together, before exhausting alternatives, and because of their distance and isolation from the Alliance, and like you mentioned, the Alliance’s equal tendency for logging feel that they wouldn’t likely ally with them just because they have a common enemy.

I could imagine the shamans and druids starting to be able to find common ground in their mutual respect for the spirit of the wilds, and be able to get into the process of negotiating an at least partially magic solution to the orcs’ need for lumber. For instance they could negotiate for the night elven druids to expedite tree growth to make orcish logging more sustainable and far less damaging to the forests. Or perhaps they could negotiate the night elves teaching them alternative building methods. Naturally, in the spirit of Warcraft, these peace talks would break down way or another though.

There wasn’t an inconsistency that existed in War3. There was an inconsistency that existed in The Burning Crusade. The explanation of how the broken and lost ones came to be is not a retcon in and of itself. The red mist wasn’t a thing because the draenei transforming wasn’t a thing. As such, the red mist is not a retcon in and of itself. It’s the fact that they made Draenei and Eredar the same race that constitutes a retcon. Really bad one too.

What you are talking about are explanations of inconsistencies brought about by retcons. They aren’t really retcons in and of themselves since they aren’t actually changing anything, just explaining the changes. It is still bad writing though. And it’s all because of the game design constraints brought about by WoW. Something that can in itself all just be retconned away. Yet you seem so adverse to that happening despite admitting to WCIII being better written simply because “the writing is on the wall”. That’s a logical fallacy known as Argumentum ad Inertia, Argumentum ex Inertia, or simply Argument from Inertia and it is not valid reasoning.

WHAT DO YOU THINK THE NAME OF THIS THREAD IS?!

That is not even close to the same thing as what you are suggesting WCIV should be!!! You don’t even want the events of WoW of WC3 to be recent history or even for the same setting! You’re outright stated that WC4 should be in the distant future in a totally different setting! That is a huge middle finger to the vast majority of Warcraft fans!! Yet you think you are in a position to argue on their behalf by claiming what is being requested by the majority who have voiced their opinion so far, would piss them off? Yet somehow also claiming it doesn’t matter if we’re pissed off?!

You’re something else bud. You’re really something else. And not something good.

Yes it is. The name of the reddit and the forum is irrelevant. It’s where current warcraft rts fans will gather until something else is available.

And it REALLY doesn’t matter what is being done in terms of lore to Warcraft III reforged, because it doesn’t actually mean things can’t be done differently in the future, AKA this is just you clinging to the same logical fallacy. You think WoW fans are the most likely Warcraft RTS fans. That remains to be seen. They are very different games. It’s just as likely that people drawn to a WCIV would be COMPLETELY clueless to all Warcraft lore. It is just as likely that any players who migrate from WoW would be WELCOMING or at the very least indifferent to the story starting where TFT left off.

Giving up on things getting better and just saying “just accept activision’s way of doing things” is not an acceptable mentality. Because this isn’t just about appealing to Classic players. This is about doing things better than things have been being done. Including if that means doing some things over.

You have agreed WCIII was better written than WoW. That alone is plenty of reason to have that be where we start WCIV from, both for classic players, and others.


#189

No. I am pointing out Blizzard sees WoW fans as potential RTS fans, and the ideal audience to market towards. This is already happening. So why are we to assume they would do all this in Reforged and suddenly revert WoW lore to a WC3 standard?

We know that lore will be abiding to WoW’s vision. How can we then assume that there would be a happy medium where Kael has green eyes and in WC4 he is alive and leads his own faction of Blood Elves? Kael is one of my favourite heroes in the series, and I do hate how things went down in TBC because I didn’t feel he was going down that path. But going deeper into the rabbit hole and pulling out a fantasy land where Kael leads a faction of Blood Elves in WC4 would be ridiculous. It’s a lose-lose scenario like making Diablo 4 pretend Diablo 3 lore didn’t exist. Diablo 3 will forever be canon. They don’t have to build its lore, and they can ignore it altogether, but they can’t move the story forward while suddenly bringing back Cain and pretending nothing in D3 ever happened.

Giving up on things getting better and just saying “just accept activision’s way of doing things” is not an acceptable mentality. Because this isn’t just about appealing to Classic players. This is about doing things better than things have been being done. Including if that means doing some things over.

Admirable sentiment, but that didn’t save WoW’s messed up plot did it? WoW players continually ask for the same thing, or do you think they all love their messed up plot holes full of demons ressurecting themselves in the Nether and alternate universes? Everyone wants a good story. The issue is removing all of WoW’s lore and starting fresh from Warcraft 3 doens’t guarantee a good story, especially when we have the same team and same writers creating lore.

WoW Expansions and Reforged are using the current WoW lore moving forward. This is not an opinion, it is fact.

We can both agree on wanting the same things, but I’m not going to pretend wanting something and getting it are the same thing. Even voicing it out. Especially when Blizzard HAS a direction they intend to follow. I never wanted Blood Elves joining the Horde. I never wanted Female Druids or Druids of any other race than Night Elf (or derivative of Night Elf). But canon is canon. Reforged will be too.

We can complain about it, we can disagree with it, but we have no reason to assume it’s going away. No reason.

This is how I view this thread. Why are we all here? To complain. Are we going to make things change? Good luck to those trying, but it’s not gonna happen.


#190

Well one thing is for sure, if we dont “complain” and let our opinion be heard, then at least it would be certain that nothing would change and Blizzard would assume that everyone is “just fine and accepting of WoW’s lore and everyone surely have played it and all its expansions, thus they have no problem picking up WC IV where WoW would eventually end”

Maybe all this complaining wont change Blizzard’s view on that, but that on the other hand just shows that they are not really listening what the most devoted fans are speaking about in the forums and thus it shows really poor judgement and outright ignorance on their part.

In the end, tell me what is that every company, atleast in theory should be doing with their products? Ever heard about “Fulfill customers expectations, preferably try to exceed them”? Again, if Blizzard would be so ignorant or so in love with their current lore that they wouldnt listen/see what the most devoted fans of the Warcraft lore fanbase are saying and talking about and thus create Warcraft IV not for their core audience, it would show just how completely lost they are, just like they were with Diablo: Eternal reveal or how Bethesda was lost with Fallout 76 or EA/DICE with Battlefield V or that C&C mobile game (and all those companies/developers have thus faced the consequences).

So again Blizzard should think very, very carefully that should they ever make Warcraft IV, who would be the most passionate about it? Warcraft RTS/Warcraft 3 fans or WoW players…once again since we are talking about two entirely different genres, it would be stupid to assume from them that most WoW players would be there to support WC IV, thus wouldnt it make more sense to actually target the game to the ones who would stand 100% behind it, especially if they would give what WC RTS fans want in terms of the story and lore?

Ofc what they should do prior to Warcraft IV is to actually create their own official surveys also targeted to WoW players and ask them about their interest for Warcraft IV and RTS games in general to really find out how interested they would even be and what they would possibly want in terms of the story/lore.

Anyhow the point Im trying to get across here is that any company should not just blindly assume that “this is how it should be, our fans are going to love it or we are going to say to them “dont like it, dont buy it””…thats the mistake so many company has made and what EA/DICE literally did with BF V and the gaming community responded in kind…(sells dropped 50% when compared to BF1 on the opening week)

Knowing your customer and what they want/expect is ofc the key to any succesfull business, but way too many companies/developers make the mistake falling in love with their own grand idea, not willing to listen the community and their criticism. Yes sometimes that criticism might be too harsh and invalid, but if you can see clear pattern/trend from the customer surveys and forums, then one should act accordingly.


#191

The problem is the common person on an enthusiast forum has no grasp of who the collective customers are, or what the collective actually wants. Blizzard generally has that data, and that data influences WoW’s direction to cater to an audience that has expanded beyond what we normally associate as Warcraft player.

When we’re talking about Warcraft 3 lore not changing to match WoW lore, I completely understand the sentiment, but Reforged is aimed at all Warcraft fans. WC3 fans who do not want any change have little-to-no reason to buy Reforged.

So who is the real customer for WC3R here? What is the market for WC3R? Players who already have Warcraft 3 and don’t want change? If that were the case then this would be Remastered, not Reforged.

Again, I am fully aware of all the people who don’t want change. The irony is Blizzard is not making the Reforged campaign for those people. They want to get new people who never played WC3 to buy the game too. Lowest common denominator. The entire history of World of Warcraft’s design catering to casuals, the shift to create Warcraft spinoffs like Hearthstone and cancelling Warcraft Adventures should give a glimpse of what the current Warcraft customer looks like.

Reforged (as opposed to a Remaster) would not be happening if not for the existence of this new crowd that did not exist 15 yrs ago. This is just something that most people on forums like this don’t think about, because most people will think ‘Oh Blizzard is remaking a game I loved and played, it must be for oldschool players like me!’ and stop thinking about all the other people Blizzard could possibly be making the game for. And most will not realize what fraction of the collective whole they actually represent.


#192

They should make DLC expansion that covers WOW lore up to WOTLK so we can finally kill the LICH KING the way he deserved.


#193

Lmao! Like hell they do.


#194

They dont have data on their own subscribers? Okay.


#195

Data on what the majority of them want? Not really.


#196

Lol, what?

Blizzard isnt giving us Reforged because we want a remake that has WoW lore in it. Why would you suddenly think the data Im talking about is what people want?

You know what War3 players want? They want remade cinematics. They want the graphical update to be free. They want Naga as a 5th race.

Do you agree with these wants? Cuz these are all things that have been asked for by the same Warcraft 3 players whose opinions of lore you value so highly. You dont realize that not everyone in this community wants the same thing.

The data Blizzard has is on players gaming trends. They are focusing their games on reaching the greatest potential market. This has nothing to do with what players want, because there is bo unified want to speak of. All we have are collections of different, individual opinions.

Lets not pretend everyone is against lore changes. We are simply more exposed to opinions being expressed against it, but if you objectively read the comments sections on reddit or news sites regarding the lore are more mixed than you think, but we tend to read what we want to hear and ignore or glaze over the opinions that we dont share.


#197

You got it wrong. Think about WoW as a 8-season hit TV show, and now the producer is working on a prequel. The purpose of adding new lines in the dialogues is to reveal more history, not to change it.

Lol why Naga? Tauren and Dwarf or Draenei and Belf as 5th and 6th race would make more sense. The option of Naga as a playable race is limited to the campagin. And they’re not new. They are exsiting units from other races with a Naga skin. Naga warrior (or brute, bruiser, whatever, the blue one with a trident), for example, has the exact same stats of abomination plus a snare from wolf raider.


#198

People want Legion and Naga. Every race suggestion always has either of these two being asked for.

Personally I dont want to see any ‘new’ races, and Id be far more interested in more new units or tavern heroes.

And as for the WoW lore thing, its more than just more lines when graphics and histories are also being changed. I suspect Thrall might be riding a white wolf this time around because that is what is depicted in his lore.


#199

198 Replies good god.
A trend I see on this forum:
Everytime there is a discussion about lore, there are the same 10 people arguing
Everytime there is a discution about ladder changes (see 12 unit cap) there are the same 10 people arguing about it

The most viewed topics barely break 3k views. Just to give you an ideea on how many people actually cared to join the forum.

That being said, about the lore issue - as long as WoW exists, IT will be in the spotlight. Tweaking a few things here and there to better tie it in with WoW will happen (look at the preview of strat) but not that many changes overall.

Warcraft 4 may be a possibility IF reforged makes a lot of $$$$ and blizz has the certainity that there is a market for it.

SHOULD that happen, it will either have to follow WoW, be non-canon fiction or have it as a alternate timeline (WoD style) and it will be like this because the most popular franchise will remain canon (as bad or as good as it is) because it’s still the bread winner.

Personally, I would like it to be an alternate time line but be part of the same universe (multi verse?) This way, maybe years down the line, WoW could have some content in which we go to this time line, that would be fun:))


#200

The upcoming Lion King remake ain’t gonna be identical to the original one, neither will Reforged to W3. There will be some tweaks here and there on minor details like this. It’s inevitable. BLZ is just streamlining the lore and the graphics to make W3 a perfect prequel of WoW Classic. It’s for the synergy between the two game.