Warcraft III Lore retconning to match WoW is a terrible idea


#201

Yup, and Im generally looking forward to it.

Some things are gonna irk me for familiarity sake, but Heroes of the Storm has done a good job of easing me into the new ‘standard’ designs.


#202

… adding races that are encapsulated by other factions already in the game in and of itself makes less sense than adding an entirely separate race that already was largely developed.

The naga may have been limited to the campaign but they were closer to a fully functioning faction than any of the races you just listed, having their own buildings, even if not a full set, building animations, armor and weapon ups, and even had some of their own faction narration.

Nothing in the game was even close to being as developed into a fully functioning additional race. As such they would take the least work to fully develop and introduce into the game than any other possibility

I also can not agree with you on the naga just being units of other races reskinned. The Naga Myrmidons actually had less health than abominations and costed less to train. That and of course the fact that they didn’t regenerate faster on blight, and could swim, and submerge.

Naga Sirens were actually unique from other player controlled units in that they were the only ones with the Parasite ability. The rest, while not in possession of abilities that were unique to them, did have stats that differed from the other units with those abilities.

Would Blood elf, Tauren, Dwarf, etc make sense as their own playable races in wc4? Sure. Just as much as Naga would. Perhaps even more so. But when it comes to adding an additional faction to WC3 reforged, naga are the clear choice. You’d have to have some sort of irrational aversion to the naga to not accept that lol.

… people are suggesting a Legion race? But… that’s not feasible… demon units are inherently OP, and never even had an actual building tree. Some people just go beyond the realm of reason I guess.

Satyrs I could see working since they already had an incomplete corrupted ancient building set, and I guess you could add a couple legion demon units to their unit roster… but idk…

That is more or less my desire as well. Alternate timeline picking up from The Frozen Throne, with the possibility for it and the WoW timeline to end up bumping into each other through inter-dimensional shenanigans at some point


#203

Now you are starting to understand how unfeasible it is to give what people want.

Even right here, you are i serting your opinion that it is unfeasible (which I fully agree with you). But how do you tell this to someone who wants Legion as a race and thinks it is feasible? And they are also a loyal Warcraft 3 player? Is this guy suddenly less valued because you dont agree with his opinion and ‘resist changing Warcraft 3 into something better’? And maybe you are not aware but this is actually a highly requested thing since WC3 Alpha actually had Burning Legion playable as a 4th race before Night Elf was announced, which is where a lot of this desire stems from.

It’s all legitimate. Their wants are no less than wanting lore to stay the same, or lore to match WoW, or lore to be an alternate reality that continues into Warcraft 4. The point is - everyone wants different things and there is nothing wrong with that.

Blizzard has a clear direction of what they want to do, and while we are free to make opinions heard. However, with statements like “tgey arent giving us what we want” can be put into perspective and answered with “well the community doesnt all want the same thing”. And ptetending that any individual or collective vocal minority is more important is mostly subjective. It depends what perspective you have, because we only know the information we are exposed to and have little ability to extrapolate on things we are unfamiliar with. Example - who is the majority of current WC3 players? Some might say people over age of 25, some people think people who are still playing custom maps. But real answer is… Chinese players. Not something we usually think about when talking about Warcraft 3 players.

This game isnt crowdsourced, this game is not a democracy, this game is built by Blizzard. Their intentions are their own and all we can do is accept what is given, and make our voices heard where it counts.

Thinking they will cater to a niche group of passionate players is a bit misguided because, like the Legion 5th race example, the players passions are not always the right decision for the health of the game. The expectation of conplaining should not be to bend their will, but to make our concerns known.


#204

I actually DIDN’T know this! If that is true then that changes how I view their interest, and actually makes it far more feasible to me to add a legion race. They’d have to overcome the teeny tiny hurdle of demon units being overpowered. Something that can not change without jeopardizing their role in the game and the story. But that information does change things. If it is in fact true.

And that’s where we disagree. Definitions exist in part so that we can determine which opinions are more valid than others and come up with optimal solutions. With the caveat that we really should TRY when reality makes what is truly valid, less desirable, to improve on reality.

The reasoning behind a player’s passions matters. So does the consideration they put into any problems raised in response to them, but that technically becomes a matter of their reasoning too in the end.

It is not a valid comparison. As, again, not all opinions are valid. A desire for legion as an additional playable race, purely for the reason of their individual personal taste, without any regard for the repercussions or quality of game design, is not the same as a desire not to see a story that was recognized and awarded for its quality, as well as appreciated by the majority of the ones who experienced it, including Pete Stillwell himself, change for the sake of objectively inferior writing, for the sake of people who care less about the quality of that story, and more about, as per your suggestion, being familiar with it after having wasted so much energy, time, and money enjoying the flashing lights and pretty colors and thus become sentimental over the accompanying story.

Yes. Fact is Blizzard can and does unfortunately exercise argumentum ad baculum. They have the power and authority, and they can use that to give themselves the right to do whatever they feel with their games and narratives.

That does not make it in good taste, or even acceptable if their reasoning is for marketing, when they have plenty of wiggle room in that regard to focus on quality for quality’s sake. Which admittedly is a balancing act between popular opinion, and the opinion of the most knowledgeable and experienced.


#205

Well that’s where we come into wavy ‘I don’t want what you want’ territory. There is no validation of opinions because opinions are ultimately subjective. There is no way anyone can define an opinion and quantify them as objectively good or bad suggestions; they can only be subjectively good or bad suggestions. Yes, some can be agreed upon by more people than others, but we then run into the ‘who decides what Warcraft 3 becomes’ question. I think having Blizzard be that wall is the great thing about valuing Warcraft 3 as a vision-driven game rather than a game that caters to whatever the vocal minority happens to collectively legitimize as a meaningful change.

One example is how we tend to view things as ‘problems’. There is no objective definition for this. Is mapmakers lacking revenue a problem? Some think it is, others not. Is changing the voice actors instead of keeping them the same a problem? Is adding female model skins a problem? There’s no objective way to quanitfy this. We can make a poll to see collective opinions, but… Like I said, 5th and 6th race is a thing.

Then there’s other aspects that are conflicts of popular opinion with Blizzard’s own agenda. Things like… ‘Do you want microtransactions in War3’? Pretty sure a majority would respond no. ‘Do you want all cinematics remade?’ Pretty sure a resounding yes. And what if Blizzard listened to the fans? Then Reforged would never have been greenlighted by the Activision Execs. What people want is not always reasonable in context of this game being a product made to be sold and intended to be a low-risk revenue system to sustain Blizzard’s other internal projects. For the most part, the ‘most knowledgeable and experienced’ are not the ones making suggestions or giving ideas of change; they’re the ones that accept the reality that Blizzard will do whatever they want to do regardless of widespread opinion.


#206

Subjectivity does not preclude validation. That notion is objectively false. It’s been proven many times.

Untrue.

Subjectivity becomes a matter of validity when certain axioms are accepted. Quality of writing is one of them. No. Blizzard acting as a wall is a terrible thing when they are willing to degrade a story for the sake of marketing. That is true regardless of what a vocal minority or any sort of majority says.

That’s fundamental ethics and the fact that you fail to recognize them is depressing.

Assumption.

Says who?


#207

You are right that certain conditions can come into play to validate certain opinions into a more objective standard. The problem is in the context of the community, we lack all the essential resources to change conditions.

We need impartial third party perspectives. We need experts on all fields of design and development. We need structure and unification. The collective anonymous fanbase is outspoken and driven by emotion over logic. Everyone thinks they are an expert on any given subject. Simply said, we are not to be trusted as a collective arbitrator of quality.

Despite my personal opinion on the matter, Blizzard is the one who makes the decision. Not one we have to agree with, not one we have to support, but one we have no choice but to accept (or ignore).


#208

Two words: Diablo immortal


#209

I know people mock DI and will point to stocks dropping and the dislikes on youtube and all that… But truthfully the game will sell gangbusters when its released. I know people here dont give an F, but China is where the money’s at.


#210

Unfortunately i totally agree… Which is why i bought some stocks. Lol


#211

I highly doubt that. I wonder what the percentage is, of WoW players that have even played WC3?
Most people who play WoW don’t play it for the story, and from what I’ve heard the majority of people who do care about the story say WC3 did it better.

It certainly won’t piss off me, and by the sound of it anyone who even remotely cares about the lore.

You seem to be under the impression that the target audience of WC4 should be the WoW player-base. I bet most WoW players have never played an RTS and won’t care at all.


#212

This is completely the opposite.

WC4 is going to appeal to the interests of a wider Warcraft audience than just the one that existed for WC3 and did not play WoW. We’re in a world where there are more Warcraft fans who know the series through WoW or Hearthstone than Warcraft 1/2/3 combined. 100 million accounts back in 2013. 70 million Hearthstone players. WC3 never had that exposure, even with the popularity of DOTA mod. Not sure of how relevant the stats are, but Warcraft 3 is listed as having 3 million sales. Putting this into perspective, only ~3 million of all Warcraft fans knew the story through playing through the campaign, while many others know it through external means such as the novels.

Generally the biggest demographic that WC3 never had is the female player. WoW opened up that accessability. None of the female WoW players I know ever touched Warcraft 3, and the ones who did play it didn’t do so when WC3 was popular, it was years after WoW came out and they wanted to see the story. I know this is anecdotal and not reflective of every female gamer, but my point is WoW and Hearthstone have opened up Warcraft to new audiences that otherwise had no interest or investment in to the Warcraft story.

WC4 continuing on WoW story makes sense; it hits the biggest audience. WC4 bringing all types of players makes sense; why would you only want to market to a niche of players when you can appeal to them all? Kinda like asking Marvel to make a new Spiderman movie but don’t tie it back to the MCU because of a perception that the Toby McGuire movies were better and should be continued instead. It don’t make sense.

No one is right or wrong, but the realistic situation is WC4 won’t go with alternate non-WoW post-WC3verse any more than the MCU would go back to the Tobyverse.

The target audience is the Warcraft audience. At this point we don’t regard people who watch the Marvel movies but never read the comics as ‘fake fans’. They’re just as real as the comic crowd, they simply don’t follow the comic universe. Why would we divide this with Warcraft fans? WC4 is ultimately going to be its own thing, and we don’t need to ignore 15+ years of WoW lore for it to be good.

WC4’s story is not dependant on WoW any more than Warcraft 3’s story is dependant on knowing about Warcraft Adventures (which technically is the source of Thrall’s history). WC3 became its own thing.


#213

How many people who play Hearthstone do you think, know or even give a crap about the story? Hearthstone itself is basically a comedy version of the Warcaft universe and certainly doesn’t have any real focus on story.

Imagine this. Hearthstone becomes more popular than WoW (probably already is) and so they decide to go back and change all of WoWs lore to make it less serious and more slapstick. Would you be happy? I could make the same arguments you’re making in favour of such a change.

That’s because girls don’t play RTS games, that’s not gonna change with WC4.

Also disagree. The vast majority of people who watch the movies have nowhere near the same investment as people who follow the comic books. They’re casuals. The films are also casual having nowhere near the same depth.
If they were to retcon the marvel comic universe to match the simplified films it would be a tragedy.
What’s more it would be pointless. Only a tiny percentage of people who watch the firms will every end up reading the comic books, so there’s no reason to pander to them.

Its the same situation for WC4.


#214

If WC4 continues the story of WoW, anyone invested in the story of WoW will play it. Girls included. Simple.

That’s like saying girls don’t read comics therefore we shouldn’t make comics for girls. The MCU has changed the entire outlook on all Marvel medium. Same with Star Wars.

And no, not every Hearthstone player will automatically run to WC4, but they could be interested in it. When a company has a far-reaching IP and a vast array of players, they will want to tap that audience for any venture.

Why would any company want to cater a big game series to the most niche of players and not plan to make it accessible to the greater player base?

Also, girls play MOBAs and MOBA is a step away from RTS. We haven’t really had a big story-driven RTS since Starcraft 2, but even then SC never had the benefit of a MMO userbase who is involved in the story as Warcraft 4 would.


#215

Unlikely.

How’s that working out for them?

Because they’re the people who will actually play it.


#216

If you’re an RTS fan and refuse to accept WoW as the current lore, then you’re not going to be the target audience of WC4.

I mean it’s the same thing if someone argued Hearthstone has no story in it. Well, what would you tell them? That Hearthstone needs a canon story mode? I doubt that.

Truth is, not all WC3 players care about the story either. Some may have only bought to play multiplayer. Some may have bought just to play DOTA with their friends. So in a way, WoW lore would fine to those RTS players too. It’s not a unanimous thing that WC3 players all hate (or care about) WoW lore.


#217

As an old-timer who have beaten WC III campaign for a dozen times in the year of it’s release alone I have no problem with WoW lore. I detest MMORPG’s, so i only followed the story through youtube WoW streams, books and other media. It has it’s ups and downs and it’s definitely not the worst thing that could happen. If WC IV is ever going to be a thing, I’d prefer it’s story to be set throughout WoW events, telling the untold stories of Azeroth happening in parallel to the main events. This way RTS players can experience WoW events without playing it and it might actually lure some of the MMORPG players to try some RTS.


#218

Ye right…again what you seem to ignore completely and utterly that we are talking about two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT game genres here…RTS genre in ITSELF is very niche compared to most other game genres, and that is NOT going change with Warcraft IV, no matter what you would like to tell yourself…

But if Blizzard would piss on the eyes of Warcraft III fans by setting WC IV on wherever WoW would end, I guarantee you, that would have negative impact on most players who have all these years cried after WC IV in the first place…

All these girls and most other WoW players NEVER have cared or voiced their opinion that Warcraft should go back to RTS form in the first place. Many of them, especially those who never played WC3 or dont care about the story/lore so much in first place, simply wouldnt care.

Yes you are right that World of Warcraft opened the franchise to much bigger audience and thus Warcraft’s story/lore received lot more fans, but that doesnt mean that everyone of these WoW fans would come in to play WC IV, cause again RTS franchise is very niche and we have seen NOTHING that would change this fact or that it would change with Warcraft IV…the only indiciation that we might get is if Warcraft III: Reforged would sell in huge numbers, that would be clear indication that there would be interest from WoW community to also play Warcraft in RTS form.


#219

Again exactly the perfect solution and compromise if they would just re-tell the main events of World of Warcraft in WC IV, but in much better and more detailed way than it was ever possible in World of Warcraft…but apparently for SOME here that also sounds like ridicilous choice…

If Warcraft IV would have several expanions/be “trilogy” (like Starcraft II was) then the first game/campaign could/should easily focus on the events of World of Warcraft and THEN afterward they could focus on new stories.

This way they wouldnt neglect any fanbase, WoW fans or Warcraft III fans. Again the best solution for Blizzard to solve this problem and hopefully they will do so, cause really anything that Triceron is suggesting about simply moving on beyond events of WoW would be pissing all those who did not play WoW and all its expansions in the eye, no matter what he tries to claim that it would not be so…

Not all of us (like Akulio) have the will or interest to follow WoW’s storyline in YT, books or WoWpedia, and making WC IV’s storyline completely independent from the previous events is ONCE again as unlikely as Blizzard just scrapping WoW’s story/timeline entirely from existance.


#220

And Blizzzard would have things in WC4 to make them care, just like Heroes of the Storm has stuff to make both WoW and SC2 female fans care. Half the streamers in twitch are girls. A MOBA itself is an RTS derivative. They werent playing DotA when it was originally released either, can you say its unchanged?

@Balnazzard

Did Warcraft 3 piss off people who didnt play Warcraft 2? All the history was covered in the manual. Why would this be different for WC4? Anyone who skipped WoW can be caught up to events in mere paragraphs.

We killed the Lich King, we imprisoned Sargeras, we tackled old god shenanigans. It only needs to cover history that will be relevant to WC4 the same way elements of WC2 were left out like no gnomes.

Alliance lost these people, Horde lost those people. Here are the new leaders, here they are preparing to tackle the next big universal threat. Not so different to how Warcraft 3. Heck, we are intriduced to an entire race of ancient Elves through the manual alone.