I’m a 4v4 enthusiast who only play RT. I am passionate about the 4v4 game mode. Unfortunately the current ranking system is very unfair. Playing in 2-man or 3-man AT counts towards your RT stats, which lets players “pad” their RT stats.
Personally, I can accept playing against AT in 4v4, but I believe we need fairness in the ranking system.
Blizzard - Please make the following change to the ranking system. It’s very simple and solves the problem.
Please follow w3champions’s example, and make it so that playing in 2-man and 3-man teams count towards separate 4v4 AT stats, instead of RT stats.
If you go to w3champion’s rankings page, and select “4v4 AT”, you’ll see that 2-man and 3-man AT count as AT stats instead of RT stats.
I think we should let people play in any team size in 4v4, but let’s make the ranking system fair and make any games you play in a team count towards AT stats instead of RT stats.
Blizzard - Please consider making this change to 4v4’s ranking system. It would make the system much more fair for players who only play 4v4 RT.
Not sure what this accomplishes. playing in 3s or pairs in 4v4 is still a disadvantage to a full AT team, so it doesn’t make sense to create AT stats for only partial teams. And really, the issue is full RTs vs full randoms more than anything else. I’m not really sure how often i’ve even seen clear groups of 2 or 3 in teh first place.
League of Legends has two queues for its ranked mode- solo/duo and Flex. Where the former only allows solo or duo players, and the latter allows full and partial premades (but you can still queue solo)- but in this game, you have your own rating regardless of if you’re in a premade or not- there are no team ratings. And frankly, I think they should do away with team MMRs here as well. Every time you play with a different person/people, you start over, and it’s honestly kind of silly.
The only real way to address this (that is, AT vs RT) outside of not doing it at all is to favor higher MMRs on the team with random players on it to account for the inherent advantage being able to have comms and preplanned strategies in a premade team provides. i.e. if an AT is 5000 MMR, to match them to randoms that are a little higher in MMR if no AT is found within a reasonable time frame.
Never care about 2or3or 4 at, the question is this unfair mmr system.
For example, if 4 solo 5500 player at, they start with 5k mmr, if u play against them, u gonna lose more mmr than usual.
And there is lots of kids at with 1mmr player
My post is not related to how imbalanced AT vs RT is. As an RT-only player, of course I would like to not play against AT at all, but I know this is unrealistic for an old game like Warcraft 3 with a small player population.
The problem that I am talking about is the fact that games you play in 2-man or 3-man AT count towards your RT stats.
Playing as a 2-man or 3-man AT in 4v4 should count towards AT stats, not RT stats.
This way your RT stats will be accurate, and players cannot “pad” their 4v4 RT stats by playing 2-man or 3-man AT.
This isn’t a problem. you aren’t in a complete AT if you are a 2 man or 3 man in a 4v4 game. Therefore it doesn’t contribute to 2v2 AT stats. Games against teams of 2 are not comparable to games of 2 + 2 others vs 4 .
If you play as 2-man or 3-man AT in 4v4, it should contribute to your 4v4 AT stats, not 2v2 AT.
Please go to w3champions(dotcom)/rankings and select “4v4 AT”. You’ll see that there are teams of 2 or 3 there. It doesn’t matter if you’re in 2-man AT or 3-man AT or 4-man AT. They should all go towards 4v4 AT stats, not 4v4 RT stats.
It shouldn’t contribute to any AT stats tbh, it should just use solo MMRs for both of you because you’re not a full team. Which is what I was saying. I’m not misunderstanding you.
It shouldn’t go towards 4v4 AT stats because you aren’t a 4v4 AT. you’re only two people. Thus you’re not a full arranged team. It doesn’t know what two other people should be on the team with you and even if it did those two people weren’t in the game, thus any MMR changes don’t accurately reflect the team’s capabilities. There are still randoms on it. Which, again, is what I said before. No misunderstanding. Just disagreement. Before reforged you couldn’t even enter 4v4 matchmaking with 2 or 3 people.
Did you get a chance to look at the w3champions(dotcom)/rankings, and select 4v4 AT?
If you’re too lazy to do that. I took a screenshot for you. imgur(dotcom)/a/kNWtopJ
Look at the way the w3champions did it. If you’re in a 2-man AT or 3-man AT, it also counts as 4v4 AT, just in teams of 2 or 3.
It doesn’t matter if you’re a full 4-man AT or not. If you’re playing as 2-man AT or 3-man AT in 4v4, that should count towards 4v4 AT stats, not 4v4 RT.
This is the right way to deal with 4v4 AT stats.
The smart folks at w3champions are actually competent developers and they have a 4v4 system that works. If w3c can do it, there’s no reason Blizzard can’t implement this.
Blizzard - Please implement this very simple change. Otherwise, 4v4 bnet will continue to be filled with “statpadders” who play in 3-man AT and get a 99% win rate in their 4v4 RT stats.
I know how w3c did it, and I don’t care because I don’t use that.
In vanilla war3, since the very first day (i.e. its not new in reforged) Arranged Teams are a specific group of people. It makes no sense, even now with the ability to queue as 2 or 3 in 4v4, for it to count towards 4v4 AT because YOU AREN’T IN A 4v4 AT. it’s that simple.
If you like how w3c does it, go play w3c.
Otherwise, if you want to track your st ats as a team in 4v4, make a 4v4 team and not a 2 or 3 person team. It makes no sense for a not-full team in 4s to be tracked as an AT, when there are still one or more randoms on your team. It also makes no sense to combine your stats as a group of 2 in 4v4 with your 2v2 stats when playing with the same partner, because 2v2 and 4v4 are totally different modes.
They aren’t going to impment even “very simple” (it’s not- it sounds simple to you on paper but the reality is its not so simple to change the ladder design) changes becuase they’re done with this game outside of some really stupid balance changes and a handful of other things nobody cares about. That’s aside from the fact that I’m against your idea in the first place.
Go take a look at the rankings for 4v4 RT right now.
You’ve got players with 100 wins and 3 losses, or 200 wins and 5 losses. They achieve this by only playing in 3-man AT.
It completely delegitimizes the 4v4 RT ladder system.
The truth is, the 4v4 RT/AT system implemented by w3c works and most w3c players are satisfied with it.
Since you’re very much against this idea, maybe you can offer your suggestion to fix it? You seem eager to trash on this idea. Yet you offer no ideas to fix it on your own. Instead, you just take the same defeatist attitude of “Blizzard won’t fix anything. It’s over for warcraft 3 reforged”.
Don’t trash on someone else’s idea, unless you’ve got a better idea yourself.
What a nice passive aggressive suggestion. I do play on w3c. But I most play on bnet so I want to offer a suggestion to make bnet better.
so do I. But I don’t really agree with this. It makes no logical sense.
What works is subjective, and obviously if they’re playing it instead of playing here they’re satisfied with it. But they don’t represent anyone other than themselves.
It makes no sense to me to track stats for partial teams like this. You can’t glean anything useful from information that doesn’t include an entire team.
The 4v4 ladder system on bnet makes absolutely no sense right now.
You’re speaking as if the current system makes sense, even a tiny bit of sense.
The bnet 4v4 ladder rankings leaderboards is 100% completely utterly broken.
Look at 4v4 AT. Every team has 98-100% win rate.
Look at 4v4 RT, apart from a few players who only play RT, the majority of players on the leaderboards have 95%+ win rate. How? Because they only play 3-man AT.
The system is completely broken. And what the idea I propose (again, not my idea, but the idea implemented by the folks at w3c for their 4v4 ladder which is working) would at least making the 4v4 RT ranking system fair, and separate out AT vs RT stats.
On a side note. You’re being very dismissive of w3champions.
The reality is that almost anyone active in the warcraft 3 scene agree that w3champions has a ladder system that works. The mass majority of quality players play on w3champions exclusively. W3champions has a moderation team that routinely bans players for bad behavior, especially in 4v4.
Also again, you dismiss someone else’s idea (an idea that is proven to work and accepted by many people) without presenting your own solution to the problem. If you feel so convinced that this won’t work, what’s your idea to solve the current state of 4v4 ladder on bnet?
If I haven’t presented a solution, it’s because I don’t see a problem. “Many” is a weasel word. Your sample is only people from a particular group and not even any specifc number (out of any specific number). It makes your argument sound stronger than it really is. “Many” people have also not been asked for their opinion, and “many” people are not part of the group of players playing on W3C where this takes place. There is no logical reason for 4v4 data to be tracked for a specific 2v2 group, because it’s not a 4v4 group.
If there’s a problem, it’s the fact that ATs and RTs are matched at all due to the inherent advantages pre-grouping has, but that isn’t any more likely to change than anything else, for queue time reasons.
