Because historically any venom stacks. When x2 wyws with venom upgrade hit a unit, it loses hp for the next 25 seconds from both poisons. When x2 dryad hit a unit, it loses hp from both at the same time. This is mechanic of how venom works in wc3.
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So you’re saying that match stats are a better indicator of skill than map stats? At least based on sample size, if you know what it is, you’re already wrong (Happy and Lyn have played 128 maps and only 28 matches in recent years). Not to mention that in matches, things indirectly related to skill, namely mental toughness and endurance, become more important. I’ll ask you a question: if you don’t sleep all night, will you be able to play as well in the morning as if you played with a good night’s sleep? In which of these two states would it be more fair to talk about your real skill?
Further, I didn’t write anywhere that Happy is not stronger than Lyn, I wrote that he is not MUCH stronger, although their win rates in absolutely the same situation show just a HUGE difference.
Your last paragraphs are actually some kind of nonsense, you apparently don’t understand the logic. I’ll simplify the task for you and repeat the question: who is stronger - Lyn or 120? I will answer for you:
- Lean is stronger. Then why is his win percentage so much lower than 120 against the same players?
- they are equal. Then why is his win percentage so much lower than 120 against the same players?
- 120 is stronger (and should be a lot due to the big difference in win rate against elves). There is nothing to discuss with you in this case, because Lyn rarely makes serious mistakes against anyone other than Happy, and this does not happen with 120 (this is a subjective opinion that many will agree with). Not to mention the fact that, purely statistically, Lin has 52% wr versus 120
Ok one last try for maximum unit selection cap.its 12 now but if you make it 14 units ,its a great help for gyros ghouls gargs bat riders feri dragons hipo riders
1 Like
Fixing Undead :
Death Knight :
Death Coil (nerf) :
- lvl1 Damages 100 or Heals 200 HP stay the same.
- lvl2 Damages 200 or Heals 400HP Nerf : Damages 150 or Heals 350 HP
- lvl3 Damages 300 or Heals 600HP Nerf : Damages 225 or Heals 550 HP
Destroyers (nerf) : Spell Immunity (Passive) removed
Abomination (buff) : Requires : Halls of the Dead (available on T2 instead of T3)
Tomb of relics new item (buff) : Tiny hunted gold mine (similar to tiny great hall from orcs)
Item cost : 450 gold 210 wood
Frost Wyrm (buff) : Build time 65 sec to (Buff) 55 sec
Undead as a race is (similar to protoss in sc2 (relaying on mothership core and warp in) is the most gimmicky designed race in the game.Around one spell Death coil and one unit destroyers.
So as in SC2 protoss were changed with addition of new buildings (shield battery) and new balance changes and removing Mothership core from the game to be now in stable state .
This changes are designed to push Undead as a race away from gimmicky design to more an RTS all around good race to play.
Ty for reading.
2 Likes
)))))))))) nerf elf and buff ghouls instead of that ahahahah omg
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People will hate me for this, but I’ve long had this idea that is fairly simple, yet could provide an immense shake-up to the meta without releasing something insane such as a fifth race. Namely…
Ultimates at lvl 5 (with creeping to lvl 4).
The thing with ultimates is that they’re often imbalanced (Metamorphosis, Inferno), but it’s fine because they’re never used in 1v1 anyway (aside from fringe cases such as solo Warden).
Imo, it’s not a 100% bad idea because then more of the heroes’ toolkits would be seen in games, and because at lvl 5 there would be a choice between the lvl 3 ability or the ultimate.
Again, it’s a controversial take, but trying it out on a PTR some day in 2024 wouldn’t hurt anyone.
Another addition to the game could be a 9th neutral hero to the tavern, but the abilities would have to be made from scratch, something like the new Orb of Fire or the Ritual Dagger. The best candidate, if you ask me, could be:
- Akama from the campaign - as a third Agility hero, his model is never used as a creep;
- Eredar Warlock - as a third intelligence hero, could be a third Undead/Demon neutral hero, the Archimonde model specifically is never used as a creep (but in lore they are equal to Pit Lords;
- Naga Royal Guard - probably a strength hero, the model is never used outside the campaign;
- Stormreaver Warlock - intelligence, used as a creep, could be a third Undead neutral hero.
These two ideas could be used in case a Re-Reforged of sorts is at all a possibility.
2 Likes
Design homogenisation such as this ought to be avoided. It’s usually Blizzard that falls into this pitfall, it would be bad if players were to blame.
They were introduced in TFT as an anti-magic unit. The Elf has already got the ability to attack them with Talon-crows now.
This is a curious change, but just a straight-up buff. If I were to brain-storm something interesting, I could see Adept Necromancers being able to create permanent Aboms after a channel time, making them tier 2.5 AND interesting (with the Statues still being in the Slaughterhouse, and maybe normal Aboms straight up removed).
Yes Elf got ability to counter them but what about other races its just to hard to counter spell immune griphon with ability to dispel (Basically Destroyer unit is OP from the start of WC3TFT)
On other hand Obsidian Statues (form) should be spell immune.
They were introduced in TFT as an anti-magic unit. The Elf has already got the ability to attack them with Talon-crows now.
We dont leave in the past (at list not me) but ppl like B2W and Grubby and on does so game is different from 20 years ago(balance gameplay and on) and some changes are needed to make it better…
Its different enough to separate it from tiny great hall becouse its only gold mine not main building .
And Undead suffers that is to hard for them to expend latter in the game and this would give them comeback opportunity.
Abomination on T2 would help make Undead have some meaty unit on T2 and dont rely on T3 so much and also compensate from Destroyer nerf and DK coil nerf…
So i dont agree with you …
They’re already mechanical, stop removing unique things from the game.
The Undead shop has no space for more items. No race has more than two items at tier 3.
It’s impressive how bad some suggestions are. What a waste of space. Every single part of the suggested nerf to Slow would make the spell unusable - and that applies to every single line of yours!
The 0.25 mana/sec buff to the Moon Wells and the Keeper mana cost buffs led to years of an Elf meta.
2 Likes
Hello everybody,
I would like to say a few words here. 15 years experience, recently I watch a lot, not playing too much to be honest. I kinda agree with @RemoDemo analysis regarding changes. It would be great to add some varieties into gamestyles.
HU vs NE.
I understand many people say NE is better. But bear in mind this matchup is usually played T2 (HU) vs T3 (NE). And still it’s almost equal. So it’s a bit crazy. So I think T3 units should be buffed for Human, not nerfing NE.
NE moonwells nerf is not good. More hard TowerRushes from HU and UD. Which already are diffucult to defend especially by 2000- rating people.
NE vs UD
Most imbalanced matchup in my opinion. Please check last game Moon vs Happy on EI. 55 miunutes game. 30 minutes fight and Happy’s units were all healthy.
In my opinion Frenzy should be nerfed for sure. Like asap. Plus statues should use more mana for regeneration. Endless regeneration is not fair really.
In the other hand buffs for necros, wyrms are more than welcome.
Moonwells nerf is not got as it’s 1 out of 2 ways to regenerate NE units. 2nd one is Bear. (there is an ulti for KOTG but lets be honest, this can be used very rarely) Other races has 3 or 4 ways to heal. Nerfing moonwells means you need bears even more which are crap agains UD.
HU vs ORC
In my opinion again various gameplay options should be added for Orc, again T3. Taurens should be cheaper. Maybe TC aura should work better for Taurens (Spirit Walkers as well)
Thanks for reading, all best for you guys.
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so, with hero spell resist lvl 3 coil - 157 dmg 75 mana 6 sec cd
vs lvl 3 250++ dmg no cd + no manacost critical strikes
srsly?
2 Likes
If anyone is interested, there is a server on discord in which trolls are discussing how best to make another stuffing into this topic.
AccCreate, RazerMoon, Prizrak etc. just from there. They are stupidly drowning for a buff to an already over-buffed race and a nerf to everyone else.
The funniest thing is to watch how the people responsible for the balance really fall for it)
8 Likes
Those guys are obviously biased beyond belief and trolling. Don’t bother.
Please consider reworking Necromancers. The current proposed changes are a welcome buff. But the community is still not convinced that Necromancers will be used. See this discussion here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WC3/comments/17tdnie/fixing_necromancers/
As you can see, most people agree that Raise Dead needs to be changed in some way. It needs to be better when dispel is present by making the Skeletons stronger. On the other hand, the mana cost is a point of discussion.
One thing that has been suggested countless amount of times is to move the spells around. For example Unholy Frenzy at Initiate Tier, Raise Dead at Adept Tier, Cripple at Master Tier.
Unholy Frenzy, just like Slow, costs 50 mana and has 1 second cooldown. If this was unlocked right away, then the Necromancers could provide support regardless of having corpses or not.
But regadless of what you do: The biggest problem for UD remains. No flexibility on T2. No dispel on Tier 2 since you nerfed Anti-Magic shield and made it so units are no longer magic-immune.
So why don’t you give Necromancer a dispel ability? You could make it so Unholy Frenzy also dispels. Now that would make Necromancers instantly useful for Undead!
UD has no clarity potions. So UD is forced to build statues. But you nerfed mana regeneration from statues already by 33%! Without giving mana regen compensation for UD casters or the heroes. Now Cripple is being made cheaper by 25 mana, but every Necromancer has less mana due to the statue nerf. The statue nerf needs to be reverted.
Statues should be moved to Temple of The Damned. You did this for Orc already when you moved Spirit Walkers to the Tauren Totem. Now do the same for Undead.
It is a caster unit and it has no place in the Slaughterhouse. If you do this, then other UD casters will be way more accessible and Necromancers could be used aswell.
1 Like
Perhaps because Blizzard balance team play night elf.
I have another idea to further improve balance regarding Ghouls.
Thanks to the recent changes, Ghouls are finally a unit thats worth using. Undead had no viable units for competitive play other than Fiends and that was terrible to play and watch.
However, some people have complained about the fact that Undead is once again a timing-dependant race. This is nothing new of course. We have seen this exact effect for years. Here are just a few examples:
- Destroyer timing attack against Orc burrows
- Destroyer timing attack against Human expansions
- Pitlord Rain of fire timing attack against Human expansions
The decision to “fix” these things were often times drastic changes instead of fixing the timing attack. Destroyers were nerfed. Rain of Fire was nerfed. And Orc received Fortified defenses on T2 which removed their biggest weakness from the game.
Ghoul frenzy is strongest at the moment it finishes research. This is exactly the same with the Undead Destroyer timing attack. Or the Undead Pitlord Rain of Fire timing attack against Human’s fast expansion.
But the issue is Ghouls fall off once Ghoul frenzy is researched. So, to prevent drastic changes from happening and once again nerfing Undead to the point where Ghouls are no longer viable, I propose a different solution.
Split Ghoul Frenzy in 2 different upgrades, which can only be researched one after the other. Just like attack or armor uprades in the Graveyard or other upgrade buildings, or just like Adept and Master training for casters… This prevents players from using 2 Crypts to research these upgrades simultaneously
The effects of these upgrades could be the following:
-
Improved Ghoul Hide: Ghouls gain +20 hitpoints and increased movement speed (same as current Unholy frenzy). Research time 60 seconds.
-
Ghoul Frenzy: Ghouls gain +20 hitpoints and 35% increased attack speed (same as current Unholy frenzy). Research time 60 seconds.
By doing this, we have achieved our goals and fixed two problems:
- The Ghoul frenzy timing is significantly nerfed
- Ghouls can stay relevant for the rest of the game against the powercreep which keeps happening to other races like Knights, Troll Berserkers, Riflemen empowered by Inner Fire, Paladins aura and 3x Staff of Sanctuary.
This approach has always worked very well in Starcraft 2, when Hydralisk upgrades were split in 2 separate upgrades. Tell me what you think!
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Hello. Destroyers (300 gold, 5 food) are killed instantly by 2 bat riders (320 gold, 4 food). In late game free for all, Undead cannot win fights against Orc without dispel. The mandatory flying status of Destroyers makes them weak against Orc and limits counterplay.
Spirit walkers have 6 dispels with no cooldown versus 1 dispel per 7 seconds.
Possible solutions…
Destroyers can recieve anti-magic shell.
Unstable concoction cannot target Destroyers. (It does spell damage but Destroyers are spell immune?)
Obsidian Statues have area dispel.
Destroyers can land on the ground to avoid unstable concoction. (They have 4 legs and 2 arms… The anatomy seems more fit for ground movement than flying)
Even if they cannot move while on ground, this would improve things and provide counterplay.
Thank you for reading.
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What even is going on? The WC3 community seems wild. Your own suggestions are incredibly terrible, for one. Not that the elf lobby is any better.
That discussion is decent. In short, the main sentiment is about making each Raise Dead cast more impactful - by increasing both the spell’s mana and the HP of the summons.
A tangential idea would be to swap Unholy Frenzy with Raise Dead, as in this scenario Raise Dead consumes too much mana for an Initiate tier spell.
I might add that Unholy Frenzy itself could use a flavourful change - increase its self-hurt DPS from 2 to 4 (or even 5) per second… but only for the living (or the enemy, a more boring variant). This way, Frenzy could be used like the Coil, either on your own units, or on the enemy ones. For comparison, Shaman’s Lightning Shield deals 20 dps, and it’s the only non-hero damaging spell.
Honestly, this too seems like a brilliant suggestion! It would be a single target & exclusively-defensive dispel. And if anyone is worrying about information overload - just look at Banish, or Ensnare, or Resistant Skin.
Then the Meat Wagons and Abominations will be dead meat.
Maybe this is only a problem at the pro level or something, but I see people use necros pretty often and they seem reasonably effective to me. If you bring meat wagons and get some kills early on, they tend to generate so many skellies that even a hu with priests has to dump all their mana to counter them. And then they still usually summon more. IDK, I"m just not seeing the problem here, but agian, maybe it’s a pro tier problem but not an average joe problem.
2 Likes