Moonwell should heal/regenerate mana of units progressively, not instantly. All other races Human/Orc/UD at T1 can only heal or regenerate mana (except UD) progressively and CAN be BROKEN by attacking. It’s so unfair NE can do it instantly at T1.
4 Likes
Not really a valid comparison. you’re comparing an inexpensive item that provides a massive amount of healing out of combat to a building that takes time to construct, doesn’t start with its full capacity, and the destruction of which also lowers their food cap. They have a lot more riding on the investment. And while the effect is instant, the mana itself is not. They also only recover mana at night or with a purchased item. Their other defensive option (protectors) is expensive, takes a wisp and is kind of slow to construct.
Which is why the balancing has been centered around adjusting the mana regen rate.
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in isolation it seems terrible, but if you apply all the nerfs in that post (and add something that I forgot about, such as nerfs to hunters, bears, betriders and banshees), the game will become more balanced. I did not pull these nerfs out of thin air. These ideas come to mind after 15 years of watching replays of a pro players. Here are examples:
- nerf of sorceresses, priests and sb-matchup vs NE through bears and Orcs, both races (dryads, shamans) often stupidly have no mana left for dispel, while HU,thanks to the brilliance aura by the END of the battle half of these units are FULL mana. No matter how good your micro is, under such slow,your fleeing bear, rider or codo are dead.As a compensation sorcs and priests hp could be buffed,so they don`t die instantly from double nuke of Orc and UD,which is also an issue for HU.You see?You simply strengthen what is weak and weaken what is strong in frequent game situations.
- nerf of shamans - too much damage from the lightning shield for tier 1 elves, it easily hangs on 2-3 units at the same time. Purge is generally a super strong skill for herokill, it breaks through invul - isn’t that nonsense?
In general, you need to nerf what is difficult or impossible to counter.
Considering that the HU is the weakest race by far, it needs to be buffed more than others, but these buffs should definitely not affect casters or tanks. It seems to me that the root of the problem is the pesants, they die quickly and in large numbers. It was a good idea in this topic to hide them in a castle, but unlike an Orc, there should not be a bonus in the form of shooting, moreover, considering that HU is more often than others ahead in the economy due to fe, then being in the main should take up resources.And put a limit of time and cd on that ability.
Overall, your balancing style would be to turn every race into cripples. And the TTK/responsiveness of WC3 is already miles more carebear compared to SC2.
All of this trolling-tier. Are you just derailing the thread? I thought my suggestion of ults at 5 was silly, but yours can’t be serious.
Destroyers are 300gold so your whole argument immediately goes out of the window. Use ensnare or coil + nova to take out bat riders
I’m self-aware that none of the following suggestions are professional, so values and stackabilities of them, and whether they are also applied on relative/similar neutral & item abilities, whether they need to be accompanied with some nerfs, depends on the adjuster if the official referenced or adopted. All suggestions are just to provide some inspirations, their effects can be changed to something else; and of course none of them are pushily.
[Balance-related suggestions]
*I’m listing these suggestions not because I think they all need to be buffed, some are because others think so(I don’t or am not sufficiently sure), even just have some ideas, but allow me to share my clumsy opinions:
Human
-
Devotion Aura
If this is not easy to adjust with only armor, how about consider combining it with spell damage reduction? -
Siege Engine
It could attack units on 1.35 PTR, although the change was not retained for the Live; however it might be an idea to restore it in this way: make “Attack Units” as a researchable ability, after researched it give Siege Engine a “Attack Units” mode, turned on it will attack both buildings and units like general units, off then only attack buildings as usual.
This method can also use on other adjustments. -
Farm
Based on my previous post: how about make it can slightly increase HP and/or MP regeneration rate of nearby friend units.
Orc
-
Wind Rider
Well, if they keep up 4 food cost, perhaps they can have a tier 3 upgrade which increased their HP(maybe plus etc) like Animal War Training? -
Far Sight
How about give it a effect like make Far Seer maybe plus friend units can avoid(ranged?) attacks and/or do critical attack with a certain chance, or increase range of ranged attack, within the area and duration of the Far Sight (since they see “more clearly”).
Undead
-
Unholy Frenzy
Perhaps we can try give it the effect of dispel magic, at the cost of increased MP cost or/and reduced duration(if casted unit is no need to dispel magic then keep usual MP cost or/and duration). Whether or not the ability of dispel magic needs to be researched depends on the adjuster. -
Anti-magic Shell
Referring to the suggestion of Unholy Frenzy. Perhaps we can even give it a ability that can cast on enemy units to block them from receiving advantageous magic at a certain time. -
Skeletal Mage
By self-sacrifice to dispel magic. This and the above two are designed to allow the Undead is able to dispel magic on tier 2 (choose only one). -
Sleep
It is suggest that when a hypnotized unit is awakened by attack, they takes additional damage from this hit than usual(even from friend forces).
Alternative/Additional suggestion: perhaps we could let Sleep can cast on friend units to let them increase HP and/or MP regeneration rate during sleep, or/and increase attack damage and/or attack rate after being awakened at a certain time. The above effect only works when being cast by a friend Dreadlord. -
Spiked Carapace
May consider adding an effect that increase some melee damage(by percentage or fixed value), after all, it’s “spiny”. -
Abomination
Well this is mostly a joke: considering that increasing or decreasing its collision size has its own advantages and disadvantages, so referring to the suggestion of Siege Engine, how about give Abomination a researchable mode that let them can change their collision size? When the “slim mode” turned on it will like “By the Lich King’s order, you all ‘breath deeply’ and tighten your loose bellies”.
Night Elf
-
Scout
Within the sight area of Owl Scout, units those effected by Trueshot Aura increase attack range or add critical attack chance, Searing Arrows add critical attack chance or increase attack range, Starfall increase area.
The concept is similar to Far Sight: since they are all about “seeing more clearly”; btw I actually designed Scout first. -
Thorns Aura
Referring to the suggestion of Spiked Carapace. -
Hippogryph Rider
Perhaps they can have a researchable on/off mode to let them can attack air units like Hippogryph do(but with less damage maybe plus rate). -
Force of Nature
Consider giving the player a certain amount of lumber after a treant’s death.
[Other personal suggestions/expectations]
Maybe Orb of Fire could have another buff(with higher price)? Imo it still lacks sufficient presence(compared with the other three Orbs) at present – even(the latest) AMAI(not its original but a most advanced github fork) doesn’t use it much…
Personally I’d like to see something new in the item drop table like Rusty Mining Pick, perhaps could try making it a higher level(than PTR 1)?
Currently some Mercenary Camps have mercenary that do not match the corresponding tileset, like Cityscape & Dalaran(Forest Troll High Priest), Dungeon(Frost Revenant), Underground(Burning Archer), Outland & Black Citadel(Skeletal Orc Grunt). Of course the easiest way to solve this is to modify(add) their tilesets to match the Camps, however this can be some inharmonious for some units since they don’t match the tilesets mostly: such as Frost Revenant in Dungeon which is fiery environment and Burning Archer in Underground which is chilly environment. Also imo the mercenaries that can be hired in the Camps have become more attenuated than before, there were some interesting units in the Camps and the tactics derived from them. Considering that mercenaries are also about balance, it would be reasonable if you put it at low priority.
That’s all for now. Thanks for the precious time you(both officials and players) took to read, have a good one.
1 Like
Absolutely agree. Moonwell healing should work like a replenishment potion that can be cancelled by attacking. Staff unit → instant full heal and mana → teleport back to the fight is cheating.
Also Human staff must get nerfed aswell. Longer cooldown and slower heal rate.
Also why does Human staff heal Tanks? That makes no sense at all. Healing should not work on mechanical units. You cannot heal them with priests or holy light either.
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I also expecting a new Tavern Hero based on Akama as “Elder Sage” or just “Sage”, personally I prefer keep him as intelligence type instead of agility(as his prototype Akama is and we have only one intelligence melee Hero so far), but it’s ok if the official made him a agility type since he is not Akama himself.
About his abilities here is my conception:
Considering balance it is probably can’t keep the Permanent Invisibility which Akama has, but still could have Shadow Meld(at night).
[Spirit Beast] (Instead of Feral Spirit)
This is the unused skill of Akama, guess it can be reused with some balance-adjustment.
[Disruption Wave] (Instead of Healing Wave, based on Ray of Disruption, Healing Wave and Chain Lightning)
Release a stream similiar to Healing Wave in appearance but with purple color, bounces up to dispel units in its wake; each friend unit that has their nerf magic dispelled will recover a certain HP, each enemy unit that has their buff magic dispelled will be damaged a certain HP.
[Firebolt] (Instead of Shadow Strike)
Another unused Hero ability, well this isn’t really a suitable replacement for Shadow Strike but I can’t think of a better idea at the moment. There is an unused Hero ability that called Poison Arrows but Akama doesn’t use a bow or crossbow/bowgun so…
[Ultra] (Instead of Reincarnation, haven’t thought of a name yet)
1: Makes Elder Sage and friend units in a certain range around him invisible and gives them a buff similar to Bloodlust(but without enlarge) at a certain time.
2: Makes friend units(may limit the number) in a certain range around Elder Sage(may include himself) can reincarnation once with limited HP(by percentage) at a certain time.
On the topic of Multiplayer Save/Loading, here is what happened after 10 minutes of gameplay on the Custom Map Sunken City and trying to load:
(Cannot add screenshots, so I’ll write down the text)
FAILED TO JOIN GAME
The saved game file you possess for this game is different than the creator’s saved game file. You either were not in this game when it was originally saved, or the save game file is corrupted.
EDIT:
Tested in a regular Melee game. Same issue.
1)Do you realize that, say, in a minute of battle, the statue heals 400 HP for EACH unit? So fiends have not 550 HP, but 950.Destros have not 850, but 1250. Of course, I’m exaggerating, because there is a focus and not always, even without a focus, units live for a minute , but even in removing a unit from focus, UDs have an advantage over other races due to coil, frost armor and aura. You can definitely add 200hp to each unit and hero by default. The statue shares the first place in terms of imbaness in the game along with the destroyer. It cannot be rooted, it cannot be stunned with a stomp, a bolt or a clap, it cannot be slowed down not only by a Warden knife, but even by dryads, it is not affected by either foc or chain lightning. They are essentially only affected by the breath of the Panda(which the hero must first of all aim at fiends or garg) and manabern DH. And the unkillable statue continues to heal, heal and heal…
2)Web is definitely imba spell right now.Tier 1 unit simply destroys Tier 2-3 air units of all three races. Of course,types of attack and armor are not enough,so 1 fiend can kill 2 wyverns, let’s give it a disable without cooldown and mana cost, lasting 12 seconds.
3)Is manaburn OP?How Sifon can`t be then lol?
You also wrote about the meta. What, the meta allowed Foggy 4 years ago to start winning against Happy more often than in 1 game out of 5? I don’t have statistics, but I’m sure that the win rates of all elves improved a little as soon as they switched from Keeper + Alchemist to DH, who by that time had not been buffed AT ALL, they simply nerfed Keeper, who was already useless crap for years. Just like a month ago the hums switched from Archmage to MK without any patches. So the meta is far from always an indicator of a successful strat.
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If so then the magic giant should also change to only be able to attack buildings, not units.
has anyone tested this yet to see if it’s actually true?
The Elf heroes, few units and buildings need buff and rework.
- Demon Hunter: return +1 agility.
Evasion: miss chance increase from 10/20/30 to 15/25/30. - Keeper of the Grove: Keeper of the Grove base Intelligence return from 18 to 19 and Entangling Roots cast range on 700 with lvl 2. Increased treants damage base from 14 to 16. Thorns aura also work equally against melee units as well as long-range units.
- Priestess of the Moon: Buff agility from 19 to 20. Owls scouts rework and buff and base attack cooldown reduced from 2.33 to 2.00.
- Warden: Buff agility and intelligence from 20 to 21 and 16 to 17 accordingly. Fan of knifes damage per target from 75/125/190 to 85/135/200.
Buff hp for wisps and back for them mana lose to units heroes from 40 to 45 and hp from 120 to 130.
So now about units.
Dryads: Bring back Abolish Magic damage against summoned units 300 and buff mana regen. Reduce the experience gain Dryads from Level 3 (60xp) to Level 2 (40 xp
Mountain Giant: Make it so that produce MG’s without shop. Also give for Mountain Giants Resistant Skin or Hardened Skin default and Mountain Giant supply reduced from 7 back to 6. Recuced for mgs from 14 to 7 second cooldown taunts. Harderen skin buff from 8 to 10 armor.
Chimaera: also movement speed return from 250 to 270.
Now about the buildings: Tree of lifes buff Nature’s Blessing Armor Bonus on +2.
Nature blessing upgrade cost reduce from 150 gold 200 wood to 100 gold and 150 wood.
These are absurd buffs for Elf. No ways any of this is justified. Just stop.
We know that Night Elf makes up 16/50 players in the top 50 of Elo rankings. Night Elf is clearly overrepresented and this is not due to skill alone. The race is too forgiving and too easy to play and allows for too many mistakes.
This is why the Nightelf need to be nerfed to be less forgiving (see Moonwell nerf) so that Elf players actually have to make decisions instead of just spamming their staff on cooldown to prevent unit losses and just heal units and heroes back up again.
Another great suggestion would be to no longer make Moonwell healing instant but instead work like a potion of replenishment. For all other races, their healing can be prevented by attacking. Only Night Elf gets to cheat with teleport + instant healing + teleport back into the fight.
7 Likes
Please nerf the Healing Ward item from 3 uses to 2 uses. Currently, it is much better than other items at the same level. Even with 2 uses, it would still be the best.
3 Likes
Hate to be that guy but just because more pro players in the top X have a certain race main doesn’t mean that NE needs a buff. It could mean other races need a buff, or some other combination of adjustments.
I’ve said this many times but you can’t just look at the top 10, 50, 100 and and make all balance adjustments based on that, because this will affect thousands and thousands of other players for whom the adjusted things might not be problematic.
Anyway, the point is, any balance discussion needs to be a lot more nuanced than simply “X pro players play this race, nerf it now.” And I’m not even an NE player.
2 Likes
Yes thats is correct. Also its way more fun to buff some underused/weak units than taking something away.
This is also correct!
So the conclusion is that Undead, which got destroyed with nerfs last patch, get some buffs and something new and fun this patch. This is finally happening for Cryptlord and Dreadlord. Whether or not Necromancers will work remains to be seen.
Keep in mind the crazy mana nerfs on Statues affect everything for Undead. So they ended up also nerfing Necromancers which are a weak unit. That was wrong and should not have happened. The 25 reduced mana cost on cripple now does not make up for that. For Unholy Frenzy and Raise Dead its still worse because their cost was not reduced.
Ontop of that Frost Wyrms are still not getting buffed. Even after years of playeras asking for it. Even pro players were expecting buffs for so long.
Orc is getting buffs not only for Tauren but also for Walkers, which synergize with each other. So thats great for them. Meanwhile Frost Wyrms keep getting ignored.
But not only that, the counters against Frost Wyrms (Headhunters) are ALSO getting buffed. So if you attempted to use Wyrms now, they will be even worse.
This is the opposite of what needs to happen. Its just crazy how Blizzard keeps overlooking Frost Wyrms for years even though the players are asking for it, but as soon as other races ask for something, they get it. Its not fair.
Thanks. What I’ve been trying to get at is that balancing is not a simple process and has a lot of nuances, especially in a game with several distinctly different factions like War3.
And I want to make it clear that I’m not saying the state of the pro scene doesn’t matter, obviously it does. But the entire playerbase needs to be a factor to minimize any potentially unforeseen negative impacts to gameplay for the bulk of the playerbase.
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why they nerf statue mana regen to 2 for units?
heroes - ok, 2 mana per statue cast
but why nerf this spell effect for undead mages. For units its must stiil 3
2 Likes
Another bug to report: The advanced replay mode sometimes displays the wrong hero skill and has a severe delay in items. Please fix. This bug has been there since the emerge of advance replay mode.