a community patch will be the end of this game same as other games that died right after some community suggestions went live … like looking at the date posted by others the first mu u notice is human vs ud and how heavily it favors human. even tho happy is clearly the better player and should never drop a map to 2400 human and yet its the only mu he s losing from time to time . human have the best t3 in the game and the race itself has counters to everything where they can just mass gyro s knights a click and beat most 2400+ uds and the only player that seems to still win is happy cuz again he s just better. plz dont fall for the human narrative where they try to feed others this story of human is weak . when in fact imo should get heavy t3 nerfs .
i lost braincells reading this … let me guess a 1500 human player??? in what world can the dh do alot of damage tp out and come back full health ??? like this story u are telling is filled with gazlighting .elfs make 2 mws for fast tech or 3mws for slow tech either way the dh will have either 200 juice or 300 juice to work with and for a 550 hp hero at lvl 1 or 600 health hero at lvl 2 lets say he lost all mana with the harrass and left with 50 hp . now explain to me how can the dh fully heal right at the start of the game after the harrass ???
It is true, orc is going to have some very neat buffs next patch (if stays as it is). So it may not be a good idea to nerf moonwells (a bit) on this patch. But I would not discard the idea in the future.
As for the human ¨buffs¨… yes, the militia buff is a decent one. 2.5 more seconds makes a decent difference. But the others are all minimal.
The mk buff is equivalent to a +4 claw at lvl 3, I think agent did the math (I did not checked). That is on bash lvl 3, which usually is mk lvl 7 or higher…
The keep buff is 1/3 of a farm, the same as the castle buff. Ok, u can make a 50 pop army with 1 less farm, so it can be, at moments, an 80 gold buff… which would be significant at tier1, not that much at mid game.
The priest buff only makes priest easier to use for all the bad players that keep all the priests on auto-cast heal all the time and do not have the micro to use move command on priests (that makes the priests not cast heal and are ready to dispel asap). It is a buff mainly for <2200 MMR players. Which I am grateful for since I’m one of those.
AM +25 hp makes it so the AM resist 1 and a ½ more swipes of the DH on early, not game-breaking at all. The +3% movement speed on pala is not bad, but it also is not that good, since is not a damage dealer hero. Will help a bit with pala positioning, though.
Also, +4 claws becoming +5 claws is a nerf for humans since is the race which benefits the least (by far) from it.
Dear blizzard. Please, address undead - night elf balance. While night elf plays RTS, undeads are playing MOBA with timing push and gargoyle fast expo. Please, consider nerfing frenzy ghouls, gargs (maybe adding some lumber cost), and skull against nerubian tower rush.
Hello @Kaivax,
Thank you for the hard work put into it!
For the incoming Version 1.36.1 PTR 4
Based on pros / semi-pros players & casters please find part 2 of the community feedbacks:
For NE:
Considering the recent buffs, to make it fair, those changes shall be adressed:
Druid of the talons need nerf of the Attack range in Crow from 600 to 500.
Moonwells need a nerf - start with a small one like -15% regeneration
Wisps detonation should also apply to ally units + should not be able to hide on trees in a way that it’s impossible to be killed by melee unit.
Priest of the moon should be buffed - for example +2 agility
For HU:
Considering the recent buffs, to make it fair, those changes shall be adressed:
Sundering Blades should be removed as default research.
Riflemen need a nerf - for example: decrease there movement speed by 10.
For UD:
Frenzy ghouls need an urgent nerf - for example decrease movement speed by 15%
(way too strong versus NE)
Coil/Nova nerf: need a slight nerf - for example decrease the range of both spells by 10%
For ORC:
Slight research buffs are always welcome but it would be better to focus on units & heroes too just like it has been done for the 3 other races!
Blademaster shall receive back +2 agility to make it playable versus HUM and versus UD.
Witch Doctors should receive a slight buff - for example increase their mana regeneration by +10%
Taurens should receive a slight buff - for example movement speed +10%
Great Hall build time reduced by 10 sec to adjust versus other races expansions.
Items:
Claws of Attack reverted to +5 is a good change. Consider putting it back to +6 and the +8 to +9! This will help versus races that abuse mass T1 units fast expansion.
Ring of Superiority everyody is selling it. Should be +2 on main hero ability and keep +1 on the others.
Auras please consider my suggestion from the previous post:
" The algorythm for auras’ drops should be reworked based on the race of the players. Item drops should include only auras that both races don’t have by nature of their race. For ex if a HUM player is playing vs UD, the The Lion Horn of Stormwind item drop should be removed and a NE or ORC aura should drop instead."
Also, " Increase aura drops by at least 25% to encourage creeping, too many rings drops that are not fun at all."
Item availability time in the shops could be changed to bring some fresh air.
Many pro / semi-pro players know them by heart and little changes/adjustments would make it more fun. For ex: add +10 sec for boots to appear in shop, reduce dust availability by 10 sec, etc.
Thank you in advance!
NWS-
The fix you applied for this is half baked.
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/techtree-requirements-only-partially-fixed-1-w3x.452253/
Based on pros / semi-pros players & casters please find part 2 of the community feedbacks:
That looks more like your wishlist. Just which community is this because I have yet to see it. It’s at least not from Back2Warcraft Dondo/Neo, Lawliet, Moon, Soin, Sok, Focus, Lyn, and Kaho. Nowhere close. Also, it’s clear it’s your list because for instance, wisps today when they detonate affects both ally and enemy on mana.
If actual pros/semi pros commented on these ideas, then that idea for instance definitely would have never been there.
It seems that the pros/semi-pro/casters all agree on the fact that UD, ORC and HU need only nerfs, but ORC needs only buffs… I know it is hard not to be biased toward your own race, but this guy is not even trying xD
It seems that the pros/semi-pro/casters all agree on the fact that UD, ORC and HU need only nerfs - said the NE player 
Just check previous patches, orc received mostly nerfs while other races received severe buffs.
This patch brings some fresh air with those research buffs but would be nice to hear some more.
Currently UD > NE > HUM > ORC.
Anyway, don’t cry again little elf player we’ll see what the future brings to us 
OP fully updated. Please see post #1 in this thread.
Improving the zoom function to be more granular is a great feature
Again, what is this addressing outside Grubby’s complaint after losing a game?
This will break the game balance further.
What is Elf supposed to do vs UD? Seriously, why is the biggest imbalance in the matchups ignored to this day.
NE vs HU is being pointed out a lot this patch with many buffs to HU and nerfs to DH. Like seriously, HU is getting militia buff, claw buff (more important early game as AM needs to right click DH away), Archmage buff, MK buff, Paladin buff, Keep/Castle buff, Priest dispel qol buff. And for NE, the ring is nerfed (nerf to DH), immolation is nerfed, mana flare nerfed. The biggest impact would be militia duration buff, demon hunter nerf, and mana flare nerfed.
NE vs Orc is being pointed out with Orc getting buffs on walkers. And this was considered as close to perfect balance as possible at top scene mmr. And Orc is also getting its troll headhunter back. With the change in spirit walker, we don’t know the impacts overall (there could be headhunter/walker plays. Maybe even taurens) which could tilt the scale quite a bit (since it’s a strat that’s never been tested in the matchup [is it even viable? Who knows until post PTR]).
NE vs UD has extreme imbalance in the side of UD.
By nerfing moonwell juice, what are you addressing now? It makes NE strictly worse in all 3 matchups.
NE vs Orc is as close to 50% in the game as possible at top scene. And Orc is getting buffs while Demon Hunter is getting nerfs. So the matchup that was as close to 50 50 got more buffs to 1 side and nerfs to other side with this change. How does that make sense?
NE vs HU with all the HU changes will quite possibly tilt just a tad bit to the HU side. It’s a 2.1% advantage to fix which with all the buffs HU got on the PTR and nerfs NE got, do we really believe it’s still not enough to address 2.1%?
NE vs UD is UD domination with 7.3% advantage. Players this patch were complaining hard about NE vs HU in top scene with a 2.1% advantage for NE. 7.3% is extreme and far greater.
So what is this seriously addressing? Immolation activation cost already went up in PTR. Are we purging immolation from the game again? Then DH wouldn’t really be playable most maps vs HU again which tilts the scale a lot.
Immolation without moonwell juice is committing suicide in this game. Why did we introduce such a poor spell design if we are going this route?
This makes absolutely zero sense. If we are going with this, we need:
- Rifles nerfed a bit
- Blademaster mirror image and Shadowhunter Serpent Ward nerfed
- Severe nerfs to UD to balance NE vs UD
Otherwise, this change has nothing to do with balance and recent complaints from Grubby in his game in which he played poorly. And then the general viewer just accepting as ‘truth’.
Why are we giving priorities to someone who is retired and mostly plays Dota and the like? Do competitive pro scene not matter? The crazier part is Grubby complains after not playing the meta for the patch; why should someone’s voice count when he doesn’t play the units that have been buffed and instead want to play strats “back in the days” a decade ago?
When are we going to address NE vs UD having 7.3% advantage for UD in the pro scene in the matchup? Why is the most problematic matchup in competitive w3champions ladder ignored all PTR?
Units like obsidian statue scales so well late game. Moonwell can only heal one. And blight is auto regen at home. The truth is vs UD in the current patch, even the current moonwell juice is nowhere enough healing to survive vs UD. So again, what are you addressing? Are we going to nerf statue HP regen again which could break other matchups for UD?
1 statue can heal 80+ food. No moonwell juice can heal that much. On top of unholy aura and blight. There’s just far more overall healing in game in UD side of NE vs UD. Hence, I seriously don’t understand this change. The worst part is when it’s daytime, if NE doesn’t have moonwell juice, during that entire time period, NE is vulnerable to large dragged on fights. Something races like UD and HU have no problems with.
Am I just supposed to enjoy the infinite frost nova with no unit cap through dark ritual on daytime once I make hippos vs gargs? My hippos when I fight vs UD players are like 70% hp before fight much of times because I don’t have the capacity to heal. Meanwhile, UD ghouls, gargs, heroes are always full HP before fight. How does that make sense?
WHY IS GHOULS AND GARGOYLES STILL NOT ADDRESSED. AND THE FACT NERUBIAN TOWER IS 5 FORTIFIED ARMOR AND CAN BE DROPPED 4 MIN INTO THE GAME IN ELF BASE. AND THE FACT NE HAS NO COUNTERPLAY TO UD TIER 1/2 EXPANSION
In what strategy game does some strategies not have any legitimate counter. Like… why is UD able to play MOBA while NE has to play RTS on the matchup? And how come this is never addressed.
My day ruined.
Well done, Kaivax. You, and your f***** Blizztards are just killing NE race entirely. Keep listening Grubby and other mongrels who told you about what’s OP and what is not, and you’ll lose WC3 as well.
(Warcraft III: Reforged Patch Notes):
Not working. After Impale, units stop targeting Impaled unit and start attacking all around.
statue heal 6 units max
Moonwells used to be 1.25 regeneration before they were buffed to 1.5. The new value of 1.35 is still better than what it is used to be before
And NE defensive structure like AoWar has less HP + far less damage.
And rifles got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And peasants have more HP since 1.26.
And arcane tower takes far more mana since 1.26.
And blademaster mirror image got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And shadowhunter serpent wards got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And orc gets fortified burrow and tower at tier 2 now.
And orc expansion got buffed.
And troll headhunters are much stronger since 1.26.
And grunts have far more hp since 1.26.
And Demon Hunter base AGI nerfed.
And so and so on.
Then there’s movement speed changes on heroes which have opened strats like Mountain King first vs Demon Hunter in pro scene (something that would have sounded outrageous back in 1.26).
The game is different from 1.26.
The game in recent years have been getting balanced around the new moonwell juice.
So to create a fair game, you HAVE to adjust some nerfs again to all race proportionately.
Grubby only whines because he doesn’t even play the meta. He expects something he used a decade ago to still work perfectly fine. Why? Every player in competitive scene was forced to adapt (this goes for all races).
Why should we cater to a guy who retired and plays Dota, etc… And ignore players who are playing the current meta.
It is entirely on Grubby’s fault for him not taking full advantage of mirror image and serpent wards this patch. I also hate the fact that his opinions greatly influence what many players think (because he was a legend a decade ago, he has significant influences to this day even though he doesn’t play competitive scene anymore).
(hypothetical example)
It’s like Tod noting his rifles buffed and not ever making a rifle. Or when he does, he doesn’t know how to use them and never goes two barrack rifles too. Why should that dictate balance of pro scene when all the top pros go rifles?
This is absolutely dumb. Grubby is the reason we have stupid spiked so strong and fortified orc towers at tier 2. Something so many players who actively play hate this patch.
The part that frustrates me most is there is as close to objective data with the help of w3champions. It should be a good starting ground for changes.
| Match Up | Difference | Favored Race |
|---|---|---|
| Human vs Night Elf | -2.1% | Night Elf |
| Human vs Orc | 5.1% | Human |
| Human vs Undead | 1.6% | None |
| Orc vs Night Elf | -0.2% | None |
| Orc vs Undead | 1.4% | None |
| Undead vs Night Elf | 7.3% | Undead |
HU vs Orc might become very close with troll headhunter back in menu.
HU vs NE is addressed a lot on the PTR.
Orc vs NE is the closest to fair balance in game.
UD vs NE is completely broken at all competitive MMR ladder.
So now we nerf NE in NE vs HU more.
And then in NE vs Orc which is currently the ideal balance, Orc gets trolls + walkers while DH gets nerfed. And now we get moonwell juice nerf too.
And then this just breaks NE vs UD more since NE is lacking heal vs UD’s too much damage output in game.
So this just makes NE vs Orc even worse (which could already favor a slight bit with trolls + walkers). And makes NE vs UD significantly worse.
Again, what is the reasoning?
Please use w3champions stats adjusted by MMR provided by Dondolore on his Google Sheets as a starting reference. That should be how balance should be started. Not what some retired player who is playing an outdated strat and realizing his strat is outdated in the game.
Grubby wants to play the strats he played a decade ago. But why should his needs be a priority over the current pro scene?
How does these changes help NE vs UD in anyway, especially the 9min ghoul-frenzy timing push? 10% nerf on moonwell juice is something that will break the matchup even more - we are looking already at a 7.3% advantage for UD.
Now NE spends a lot more moonwell juice because of ring of protection nerf and immolation activation cost.
AND moonwell juice is getting nerfed.
UD is going to have a field day for sure. Apparently 7.3% imbalance in the game wasn’t enough. We need to hit double digit %.
Right now at pro scene, ghouls come at tier 3 and top NE lose with: using all the potions in shop (300 gold thrown out), home base advantage (all the moonwells), fighting next to ancients. And NE heroes many times explode inside base because there’s just not enough healing at the current patch to defend against the UD tier 3 timing push.
And then there’s also the issue with 2 base+ gargoyles having no real counter in the pro scene (since gargoyles are 2 food and deal double damage vs dryads on top of air units not having collision issues. And because gargoyles come right away from crypt and can also creep/stone form on top of frost nova having no unit cap and dreadlord having swarm/vampiric).
And how Elf doesn’t have an answer to get the same gold as UD when UD expands at tier 1/2 since Tree of Life is far more expensive AND needs to root afterwards.
And then there’s also the super late game issue with banshees hard countering with antimagic and possess. Once every unit is in antimagic, then heroes like panda is deleted from the game. And possess hard counters bears which forces Elf to go MGs which don’t deal DPS. Hence winning because NE cannot make an actual army to fight the UD army since the only unit that competes vs fiends/abominations is bears which cannot be gotten due to banshees (possess and bye bye).
And of course, the extreme issue. The fact nerubian towers are so difficult to destroy because of the ridiculous acolyte repair on top and because it’s 5 fortified armor 4 minutes to the game.
I’m sorry. But even Orc used to have fortified at tier 3 in the past. And it was only recently to tier 2. This is at tier 1 WITHOUT ANY upgrades available right away 4 minutes AT AN OPPONENT’S BASE.