PTR Version 1.36.1 Notes -- Updated November 9

PTR Discussion and Bug Report
347

In my opinion HU vs NE favours NE, you can agree with that or not. So that MU you would be addressing. And I am not suggesting a game-breaking nerf. Bring it down from 1.5 to 1.4. That is a 6% nerf. Making tier2 pushes somewhat viable is not bad, I think. Is a RTS afterall, having more viable strats seems good.

I do agree that UD>>>NE badly. But ladder stats indicate that NE is rather strong at high lvl. They have good winrate vs HU and ORC (around 52% at +2200MMR). You usually have 5 NE players in the top 10 top or 15 elo (moon, lawliet, colorful, kaho and foggy), depending when u check the elo. In 2023 NE is the second race with the most money won on tournaments, and by a rather big margin (97k NE, 81k orcs). In 2022 it was a close 3rd (92k for orcs, 91k for NE). In both years, if you disregard the 1st earning player of each race, NE is 1st. Which also suggests that there are more strong players of that race than of the others. Ofc, you can argue “that is because NE players are betters”. Is a similar argument that UD players use.

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The problem with touching moonwells is that it’s used in all 4 matchups. Also, HU vs NE is getting addressed to an extent with the militia duration + demon hunter nerfs. And the Keeper and Castle buff on top of a random Paladin buff. And a mountain king buff.

There’s a lot of buffs from HU in HU vs NE next patch to help the matchup. Up to there might be fine but touching moonwells… that touches all matchups.
The most recent season on W3C (with updated data) has NE vs Orc when both players are 2300 and above to be -0.2% (so 0.2% in favor of Elf).
It’s evened out a lot as players have adapted to the patch. In Season 15 when the patch was fresh, the matchup was 3.6% in favor of Elf.

However, NE vs UD just got worse over the season in the same patch. It went from 4.4% in favor of UD in Season 15 to 7.3% in favor of UD in Season 16.

It takes time for pros to adapt. And in the current evolving meta, NE vs Orc in pro scene by Dondolore’s stats when both players are above 2300 are showing very very fair matchup (difference within 0.2% which is the most fair in the game).
Also don’t forget Orc is going to be receiving buffs in PTR including spirit walkers. Those changes with Demon Hunter nerf could cancel out or even beat a 0.2% difference in 2300+ mmr plays. Of course if you are convinced the buffs/nerfs are not enough, then that just further accentuates how much more nerfs UD needs to make UD vs Elf more fair. I don’t want UD to crumble on the other matchups just to make vs NE fair but the extremity of the imbalance at this point is becoming a meme. It doesn’t help that units like gargoyles (which are also used on other matchups recently) are one of the hard counters to Elf in the game.

Official stats of Season 16 when both players are >= 2300:

Match Up Difference Favored Race
Human vs Night Elf -2.1% Night Elf
Human vs Orc 5.1% Human
Human vs Undead 1.6% None
Orc vs Night Elf -0.2% None
Orc vs Undead 1.4% None
Undead vs Night Elf 7.3% Undead

7.3% by any standards is way too extreme in this game. It should be the first thing Blizzard should be prioritizing in terms of balance in the PTR currently.

3 Likes
349

Orc vs NE is the most fair balance in the game. But it’s also balanced incredibly awkwardly.

Overall in S16 w3champions at both players >= 2300:
|Orc vs Night Elf: -0.2%
It shows the matchup is as fair as it gets in the game.

The matchup is balanced through map luck.

Maps Difference
Amazonia -4.8%
Last Refuge -3.7%
Shallow Grave -3.5%
Twisted Meadows -2.2%
Springtime -2.2%
Echo Isles 2.0 -1.5%
Autumn Leaves 0.2%
Hammerfall 0.6%
Concealed Hill 2.5%
Tidehunters 3.1%
Turtle Rock 3.6%
Northern Isles 4.4%
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350

a community patch will be the end of this game same as other games that died right after some community suggestions went live … like looking at the date posted by others the first mu u notice is human vs ud and how heavily it favors human. even tho happy is clearly the better player and should never drop a map to 2400 human and yet its the only mu he s losing from time to time . human have the best t3 in the game and the race itself has counters to everything where they can just mass gyro s knights a click and beat most 2400+ uds and the only player that seems to still win is happy cuz again he s just better. plz dont fall for the human narrative where they try to feed others this story of human is weak . when in fact imo should get heavy t3 nerfs .

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351

i lost braincells reading this … let me guess a 1500 human player??? in what world can the dh do alot of damage tp out and come back full health ??? like this story u are telling is filled with gazlighting .elfs make 2 mws for fast tech or 3mws for slow tech either way the dh will have either 200 juice or 300 juice to work with and for a 550 hp hero at lvl 1 or 600 health hero at lvl 2 lets say he lost all mana with the harrass and left with 50 hp . now explain to me how can the dh fully heal right at the start of the game after the harrass ???

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352

It is true, orc is going to have some very neat buffs next patch (if stays as it is). So it may not be a good idea to nerf moonwells (a bit) on this patch. But I would not discard the idea in the future.

As for the human ¨buffs¨… yes, the militia buff is a decent one. 2.5 more seconds makes a decent difference. But the others are all minimal.

The mk buff is equivalent to a +4 claw at lvl 3, I think agent did the math (I did not checked). That is on bash lvl 3, which usually is mk lvl 7 or higher…

The keep buff is 1/3 of a farm, the same as the castle buff. Ok, u can make a 50 pop army with 1 less farm, so it can be, at moments, an 80 gold buff… which would be significant at tier1, not that much at mid game.

The priest buff only makes priest easier to use for all the bad players that keep all the priests on auto-cast heal all the time and do not have the micro to use move command on priests (that makes the priests not cast heal and are ready to dispel asap). It is a buff mainly for <2200 MMR players. Which I am grateful for since I’m one of those.

AM +25 hp makes it so the AM resist 1 and a ½ more swipes of the DH on early, not game-breaking at all. The +3% movement speed on pala is not bad, but it also is not that good, since is not a damage dealer hero. Will help a bit with pala positioning, though.

Also, +4 claws becoming +5 claws is a nerf for humans since is the race which benefits the least (by far) from it.

2 Likes
353

Dear blizzard. Please, address undead - night elf balance. While night elf plays RTS, undeads are playing MOBA with timing push and gargoyle fast expo. Please, consider nerfing frenzy ghouls, gargs (maybe adding some lumber cost), and skull against nerubian tower rush.

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354

Hello @Kaivax,

Thank you for the hard work put into it!

For the incoming Version 1.36.1 PTR 4

Based on pros / semi-pros players & casters please find part 2 of the community feedbacks:

For NE:
Considering the recent buffs, to make it fair, those changes shall be adressed:
Druid of the talons need nerf of the Attack range in Crow from 600 to 500.
Moonwells need a nerf - start with a small one like -15% regeneration
Wisps detonation should also apply to ally units + should not be able to hide on trees in a way that it’s impossible to be killed by melee unit.
Priest of the moon should be buffed - for example +2 agility

For HU:
Considering the recent buffs, to make it fair, those changes shall be adressed:
Sundering Blades should be removed as default research.
Riflemen need a nerf - for example: decrease there movement speed by 10.

For UD:
Frenzy ghouls need an urgent nerf - for example decrease movement speed by 15%
(way too strong versus NE)
Coil/Nova nerf: need a slight nerf - for example decrease the range of both spells by 10%

For ORC:
Slight research buffs are always welcome but it would be better to focus on units & heroes too just like it has been done for the 3 other races!
Blademaster shall receive back +2 agility to make it playable versus HUM and versus UD.
Witch Doctors should receive a slight buff - for example increase their mana regeneration by +10%
Taurens should receive a slight buff - for example movement speed +10%
Great Hall build time reduced by 10 sec to adjust versus other races expansions.

Items:
Claws of Attack reverted to +5 is a good change. Consider putting it back to +6 and the +8 to +9! This will help versus races that abuse mass T1 units fast expansion.

Ring of Superiority everyody is selling it. Should be +2 on main hero ability and keep +1 on the others.

Auras please consider my suggestion from the previous post:
" The algorythm for auras’ drops should be reworked based on the race of the players. Item drops should include only auras that both races don’t have by nature of their race. For ex if a HUM player is playing vs UD, the The Lion Horn of Stormwind item drop should be removed and a NE or ORC aura should drop instead."

Also, " Increase aura drops by at least 25% to encourage creeping, too many rings drops that are not fun at all."

Item availability time in the shops could be changed to bring some fresh air.
Many pro / semi-pro players know them by heart and little changes/adjustments would make it more fun. For ex: add +10 sec for boots to appear in shop, reduce dust availability by 10 sec, etc.

Thank you in advance!

NWS-

1 Like
355

The fix you applied for this is half baked.
https://www.hiveworkshop.com/attachments/techtree-requirements-only-partially-fixed-1-w3x.452253/

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Based on pros / semi-pros players & casters please find part 2 of the community feedbacks:

That looks more like your wishlist. Just which community is this because I have yet to see it. It’s at least not from Back2Warcraft Dondo/Neo, Lawliet, Moon, Soin, Sok, Focus, Lyn, and Kaho. Nowhere close. Also, it’s clear it’s your list because for instance, wisps today when they detonate affects both ally and enemy on mana.
If actual pros/semi pros commented on these ideas, then that idea for instance definitely would have never been there.

2 Likes
357

It seems that the pros/semi-pro/casters all agree on the fact that UD, ORC and HU need only nerfs, but ORC needs only buffs… I know it is hard not to be biased toward your own race, but this guy is not even trying xD

358

It seems that the pros/semi-pro/casters all agree on the fact that UD, ORC and HU need only nerfs - said the NE player :smiley:

Just check previous patches, orc received mostly nerfs while other races received severe buffs.

This patch brings some fresh air with those research buffs but would be nice to hear some more.

Currently UD > NE > HUM > ORC.

Anyway, don’t cry again little elf player we’ll see what the future brings to us :slight_smile:

359

OP fully updated. Please see post #1 in this thread.

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360

Improving the zoom function to be more granular is a great feature

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361

Again, what is this addressing outside Grubby’s complaint after losing a game?
This will break the game balance further.

What is Elf supposed to do vs UD? Seriously, why is the biggest imbalance in the matchups ignored to this day.

NE vs HU is being pointed out a lot this patch with many buffs to HU and nerfs to DH. Like seriously, HU is getting militia buff, claw buff (more important early game as AM needs to right click DH away), Archmage buff, MK buff, Paladin buff, Keep/Castle buff, Priest dispel qol buff. And for NE, the ring is nerfed (nerf to DH), immolation is nerfed, mana flare nerfed. The biggest impact would be militia duration buff, demon hunter nerf, and mana flare nerfed.
NE vs Orc is being pointed out with Orc getting buffs on walkers. And this was considered as close to perfect balance as possible at top scene mmr. And Orc is also getting its troll headhunter back. With the change in spirit walker, we don’t know the impacts overall (there could be headhunter/walker plays. Maybe even taurens) which could tilt the scale quite a bit (since it’s a strat that’s never been tested in the matchup [is it even viable? Who knows until post PTR]).
NE vs UD has extreme imbalance in the side of UD.

By nerfing moonwell juice, what are you addressing now? It makes NE strictly worse in all 3 matchups.
NE vs Orc is as close to 50% in the game as possible at top scene. And Orc is getting buffs while Demon Hunter is getting nerfs. So the matchup that was as close to 50 50 got more buffs to 1 side and nerfs to other side with this change. How does that make sense?
NE vs HU with all the HU changes will quite possibly tilt just a tad bit to the HU side. It’s a 2.1% advantage to fix which with all the buffs HU got on the PTR and nerfs NE got, do we really believe it’s still not enough to address 2.1%?
NE vs UD is UD domination with 7.3% advantage. Players this patch were complaining hard about NE vs HU in top scene with a 2.1% advantage for NE. 7.3% is extreme and far greater.

So what is this seriously addressing? Immolation activation cost already went up in PTR. Are we purging immolation from the game again? Then DH wouldn’t really be playable most maps vs HU again which tilts the scale a lot.
Immolation without moonwell juice is committing suicide in this game. Why did we introduce such a poor spell design if we are going this route?

This makes absolutely zero sense. If we are going with this, we need:

  1. Rifles nerfed a bit
  2. Blademaster mirror image and Shadowhunter Serpent Ward nerfed
  3. Severe nerfs to UD to balance NE vs UD

Otherwise, this change has nothing to do with balance and recent complaints from Grubby in his game in which he played poorly. And then the general viewer just accepting as ‘truth’.
Why are we giving priorities to someone who is retired and mostly plays Dota and the like? Do competitive pro scene not matter? The crazier part is Grubby complains after not playing the meta for the patch; why should someone’s voice count when he doesn’t play the units that have been buffed and instead want to play strats “back in the days” a decade ago?

When are we going to address NE vs UD having 7.3% advantage for UD in the pro scene in the matchup? Why is the most problematic matchup in competitive w3champions ladder ignored all PTR?

Units like obsidian statue scales so well late game. Moonwell can only heal one. And blight is auto regen at home. The truth is vs UD in the current patch, even the current moonwell juice is nowhere enough healing to survive vs UD. So again, what are you addressing? Are we going to nerf statue HP regen again which could break other matchups for UD?
1 statue can heal 80+ food. No moonwell juice can heal that much. On top of unholy aura and blight. There’s just far more overall healing in game in UD side of NE vs UD. Hence, I seriously don’t understand this change. The worst part is when it’s daytime, if NE doesn’t have moonwell juice, during that entire time period, NE is vulnerable to large dragged on fights. Something races like UD and HU have no problems with.
Am I just supposed to enjoy the infinite frost nova with no unit cap through dark ritual on daytime once I make hippos vs gargs? My hippos when I fight vs UD players are like 70% hp before fight much of times because I don’t have the capacity to heal. Meanwhile, UD ghouls, gargs, heroes are always full HP before fight. How does that make sense?

WHY IS GHOULS AND GARGOYLES STILL NOT ADDRESSED. AND THE FACT NERUBIAN TOWER IS 5 FORTIFIED ARMOR AND CAN BE DROPPED 4 MIN INTO THE GAME IN ELF BASE. AND THE FACT NE HAS NO COUNTERPLAY TO UD TIER 1/2 EXPANSION
In what strategy game does some strategies not have any legitimate counter. Like… why is UD able to play MOBA while NE has to play RTS on the matchup? And how come this is never addressed.

3 Likes
362

My day ruined.

363

Well done, Kaivax. You, and your f***** Blizztards are just killing NE race entirely. Keep listening Grubby and other mongrels who told you about what’s OP and what is not, and you’ll lose WC3 as well.

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365

(Warcraft III: Reforged Patch Notes):

Not working. After Impale, units stop targeting Impaled unit and start attacking all around.

366

statue heal 6 units max

367

Moonwells used to be 1.25 regeneration before they were buffed to 1.5. The new value of 1.35 is still better than what it is used to be before

5 Likes