PTR Version 1.36.1 Notes -- Updated November 9

PTR Discussion and Bug Report
368

And NE defensive structure like AoWar has less HP + far less damage.
And rifles got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And peasants have more HP since 1.26.
And arcane tower takes far more mana since 1.26.
And blademaster mirror image got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And shadowhunter serpent wards got buffed a lot since 1.26.
And orc gets fortified burrow and tower at tier 2 now.
And orc expansion got buffed.
And troll headhunters are much stronger since 1.26.
And grunts have far more hp since 1.26.
And Demon Hunter base AGI nerfed.
And so and so on.
Then there’s movement speed changes on heroes which have opened strats like Mountain King first vs Demon Hunter in pro scene (something that would have sounded outrageous back in 1.26).

The game is different from 1.26.
The game in recent years have been getting balanced around the new moonwell juice.
So to create a fair game, you HAVE to adjust some nerfs again to all race proportionately.

Grubby only whines because he doesn’t even play the meta. He expects something he used a decade ago to still work perfectly fine. Why? Every player in competitive scene was forced to adapt (this goes for all races).
Why should we cater to a guy who retired and plays Dota, etc… And ignore players who are playing the current meta.

It is entirely on Grubby’s fault for him not taking full advantage of mirror image and serpent wards this patch. I also hate the fact that his opinions greatly influence what many players think (because he was a legend a decade ago, he has significant influences to this day even though he doesn’t play competitive scene anymore).
(hypothetical example)
It’s like Tod noting his rifles buffed and not ever making a rifle. Or when he does, he doesn’t know how to use them and never goes two barrack rifles too. Why should that dictate balance of pro scene when all the top pros go rifles?

This is absolutely dumb. Grubby is the reason we have stupid spiked so strong and fortified orc towers at tier 2. Something so many players who actively play hate this patch.

The part that frustrates me most is there is as close to objective data with the help of w3champions. It should be a good starting ground for changes.

Match Up Difference Favored Race
Human vs Night Elf -2.1% Night Elf
Human vs Orc 5.1% Human
Human vs Undead 1.6% None
Orc vs Night Elf -0.2% None
Orc vs Undead 1.4% None
Undead vs Night Elf 7.3% Undead

HU vs Orc might become very close with troll headhunter back in menu.
HU vs NE is addressed a lot on the PTR.
Orc vs NE is the closest to fair balance in game.
UD vs NE is completely broken at all competitive MMR ladder.

So now we nerf NE in NE vs HU more.
And then in NE vs Orc which is currently the ideal balance, Orc gets trolls + walkers while DH gets nerfed. And now we get moonwell juice nerf too.
And then this just breaks NE vs UD more since NE is lacking heal vs UD’s too much damage output in game.

So this just makes NE vs Orc even worse (which could already favor a slight bit with trolls + walkers). And makes NE vs UD significantly worse.

Again, what is the reasoning?
Please use w3champions stats adjusted by MMR provided by Dondolore on his Google Sheets as a starting reference. That should be how balance should be started. Not what some retired player who is playing an outdated strat and realizing his strat is outdated in the game.

Grubby wants to play the strats he played a decade ago. But why should his needs be a priority over the current pro scene?

5 Likes
369

Great changes, keep up the good work.

More BNet maps to ladder please, less W3C maps.

1 Like
370

How does these changes help NE vs UD in anyway, especially the 9min ghoul-frenzy timing push? 10% nerf on moonwell juice is something that will break the matchup even more - we are looking already at a 7.3% advantage for UD.

2 Likes
371

Now NE spends a lot more moonwell juice because of ring of protection nerf and immolation activation cost.

AND moonwell juice is getting nerfed.

UD is going to have a field day for sure. Apparently 7.3% imbalance in the game wasn’t enough. We need to hit double digit %.

Right now at pro scene, ghouls come at tier 3 and top NE lose with: using all the potions in shop (300 gold thrown out), home base advantage (all the moonwells), fighting next to ancients. And NE heroes many times explode inside base because there’s just not enough healing at the current patch to defend against the UD tier 3 timing push.

And then there’s also the issue with 2 base+ gargoyles having no real counter in the pro scene (since gargoyles are 2 food and deal double damage vs dryads on top of air units not having collision issues. And because gargoyles come right away from crypt and can also creep/stone form on top of frost nova having no unit cap and dreadlord having swarm/vampiric).
And how Elf doesn’t have an answer to get the same gold as UD when UD expands at tier 1/2 since Tree of Life is far more expensive AND needs to root afterwards.

And then there’s also the super late game issue with banshees hard countering with antimagic and possess. Once every unit is in antimagic, then heroes like panda is deleted from the game. And possess hard counters bears which forces Elf to go MGs which don’t deal DPS. Hence winning because NE cannot make an actual army to fight the UD army since the only unit that competes vs fiends/abominations is bears which cannot be gotten due to banshees (possess and bye bye).

And of course, the extreme issue. The fact nerubian towers are so difficult to destroy because of the ridiculous acolyte repair on top and because it’s 5 fortified armor 4 minutes to the game.
I’m sorry. But even Orc used to have fortified at tier 3 in the past. And it was only recently to tier 2. This is at tier 1 WITHOUT ANY upgrades available right away 4 minutes AT AN OPPONENT’S BASE.

4 Likes
372

I am speechless. Instead of addressing ghoul frenzy so elf undead games go beyond 8-9 min mark, you guys nerfed moon wells. In a patch with nerubian tower rush and timing pushes from undeads. Revert this change and finally address freaking ghouls. Please.

3 Likes
373

“Strong and fortified orc towers at tier 2” were made because of the elf Druid of the Talon. The Druid of the Talon worked excellently against both units and heroes, as well as buildings (economy) and air units. An absolutely versatile unit that shouldn’t have existed in the game. It’s like a catapult that counters both heroes and units. Foggy with talons on cooldown was winning against Lyn, Focus, etc.

Where do you see the advantage in UD/NE? Your statistics are incorrect. Try removing Happy’s games from it. And for fairness, you can remove any of the elves. And look at the outcome of your statistics.

374

Warden got a massive buff. It is too early to worry about NE vs HU favouring HU. If any, I think Warden Panda or solo Warden will own HU, despite the nerf of faeries. DH was nerfed, alright, but that does not matter if you play Warden. If any, I am afraid for the humans (especially in maps without zepellin).

As for NE vs ORC, is true ORC had some good buffs, but mainly to walker play, which is not the predominant strategy. Also on hhs, which are not the main weapon against NE. Even with moon wells at 1.35, I think this MU should be tested before.

That being said, maybe trying 1.4 rather than 1.35 would be better.

I do worry a lot about the UD vs NE MU. This one will be indeed a challenge. I think this problem can be addressed by nerfing the research time (by a lot of time!) on frenzy. It is the MU where the upgrade is the most impactful. A slight nerf to nova may be a good idea as well. Stomp was crazy good and was nerfed, clap was crazy good and was nerfed. But nova remains untouched, by far the best no-ultimate skill: an 8-second slow on an 8-second cold-down with 800 range (+ very good damage)…

I also worry a bit about ORC vs HU with this new buff on HHs. The early game is already hard for humans against ORC. It is true that later the scale goes on the human favour, so it may be alright.

3 Likes
375

It’s been done. And the difference was still the highest in matchup imbalance. Please refer to dondolore’s updated w3champions mmr adjusted stats for Season 16.

UD dominates Elf at all competitive MMR range. It’s the only matchup that really has a common issue across the MMR.

2 Likes
376

“Moonwell mana regeneration reduced from 1.5 to 1.35.” This is a good change, leave it as it is.
In the patch prior to 1.30, it was 1.25, and the elves played quite well. The thing is, the balance is heavily in favor of the elves now. Other races have to come up with something, make changes. Even the strategy with Nerubian Tower (which doesn’t work) appeared not without reason but out of desperation for playing as UD and experimenting with it. HUM has tried everything against elves. Happy himself started playing ghouls instead of spiders. Sometimes gargoyles, sometimes Dreadlord. He has to come up with new strategies all the time, not because of good balance. But elves with their overpowered Demon Hunter didn’t have to think much. Since patch 1.30, elves haven’t brought anything new to the game. Because they don’t need to. It’s so easy, and it’s more than enough. They play with the imbalance. Although elves are the only race that can play with any hero and unit composition from the tavern.
So, reducing Moonwell mana regeneration from 1.5 to 1.35 is a good change. It could have been nerfed more, but elves are already swear. (Although in the previous patch, statues for UD were nerfed by 33%, and there was no uproar).
Kaivax, or whoever is responsible for the patches, stick to your decision. You did it right (you could have done more). Perhaps this change will bring the game to a good balance.

10 Likes
377

PTR crashes when I’m trying to either watch a replay or observe a custom game in singleplayer.

378

moonwell nerf seems unnecessary…

379

一个新功能都没有，就这点数据修改你还月底发布？你们团队是彻底不要脸了是吧。

380

This is a fair change. Going back to before the buffs for Elfs which made them overpowered in the past. Elf is everywhere in tournaments. They are supposed to be THE flexible race and its nice how they empower neutral heroes. But the Moonwells are simply too good.

250 was too low, maybe try 280 or 290?

NO! Why would you revert this change? Abominations were in a great place! For the first time ever they were able to attack properly and not block each other. This is a big nerf for Undead. Very sad to read this.

Where are the nerfs to Human? Sundering Blades? Human Staff? Human Tier 3 in general?

This patch is a huge buff for Human, this is not ok.

Human tier 2 already beats Elf Tier 3 once your get Rifles + Casters above 60 supply. This should not work. Human is getting buffed more and more. Tier 3 is already almost unbeatable. Especially against Undead.

We are not looking forward to this at all. You overbuff Humans way too much.
Take away sundering blades. Increase cooldown on Staff of Sanctuary by 15 seconds. Revert Armor buffs from Aura.

And what does Undead get? Where are the buffs to Frost Wyrms? Now Undead has to deal with even more armor on Knights. Still Wyrms cannot be used in competitive. So Undeads only answer is to use Banshees.

We told you, give Frost Wyrms +100 attack range.
Stop nerfing Undead over and over and over.
Obsidian Statues have been nerfed for 20 years in a row. This is absurd. Revert the mana regeneration nerf.
Its fair to give them buffs in the earlygame for Human, but you must nerf Human lategame.

Undead needs fun new options. Please consider a real rework to Necromancers.

Please consider moving Statues to Temple of the Dammned.

Buff Frost Wyrms. Undead needs more unit variety. Its lackign behind the other races.

2 Likes
381

Dondolore´s post is nice. But if there are imbalances in the game, MMR is polluted by those imbalances (same as Elo). What Dondolore did is better than just checking win rates, 100% with that. But it is far from being an ultimate argument that can be used to balance. You can use it, but you must pair it with other arguments.

382

I can’t wait for Keeper to explode to coil nova much faster than it does today.

Keeper already explodes because NE has no way to heal vs UD despite chugging all the potions in the shop. Now there’s less moonwell juice?

Just let Keeper be purged in the game vs UD please.

3 Likes
383

Well done with the OP moonwells nerf @Kavax! =)

It could have been nerfed even more =)

Please, in the next patch, address the remaining important points:

Needless to repeat that UD is the strongest race now:
Frenzy ghouls need an urgent nerf - for example decrease movement speed by 20%
(way too strong versus NE)
Coil/Nova nerf: need a slight nerf - for example decrease the range of Nova by 20%

For NE:
Druid of the talons need nerf of the Attack range in Crow from 600 to 500.
Wisps detonation should remove ally’s spells + should not be able to hide on trees in a way that it’s impossible to be killed by melee unit.
Priest of the moon should be buffed - for example +2 agility

For HU:
Considering the recent buffs, to make it fair, those changes shall be adressed:
Sundering Blades should be removed as default research.
Riflemen need a nerf - for example: decrease their movement speed by 10 or 20.

For ORC:
Slight research buffs are always welcome but it would be better to focus on units & heroes too just like it has been done for the 3 other races!
Blademaster shall receive back +2 agility to make it playable versus HUM and versus UD.
Witch Doctors should receive a slight buff - for example increase their mana regeneration by +10 or 20%
Taurens should receive a slight buff - for example movement speed +10%
Great Hall build time reduced by 10 sec to adjust versus other races expansions.

Items:
Claws of Attack reverted to +5 is a good change. Consider putting it back to +6 and the +8 to +9! This will help versus races that abuse mass T1 units fast expansion.

Ring of Superiority everyody is selling it. Should be +2 on main hero ability and keep +1 on the others.

Auras please consider my suggestion from the previous post:
" The algorythm for auras’ drops should be reworked based on the race of the players. Item drops should include only auras that both races don’t have by nature of their race. For ex if a HUM player is playing vs UD, the The Lion Horn of Stormwind item drop should be removed and a NE or ORC aura should drop instead."

Also, " Increase aura drops by at least 25% to encourage creeping, too many rings drops that are not fun at all."

Item availability time in the shops could be changed to bring some fresh air.
Many pro / semi-pro players know them by heart and little changes/adjustments would make it more fun. For ex: add +10 sec for boots to appear in shop, reduce dust availability by 10 sec, etc.

Thanks & Regards.

1 Like
384

Perfection. change wyvern food from 4 to 3 Human griffins are much better and they also have 4

1 Like
385

I am really curious what this is adressing? I dont play the game long enough to know from experience what those reverted numbers mean in avaibale hp in fight scenarios in total numbers. But I really dislike the idea of changing moonwells in any way as it does not target any current issue that I am aware of. When implemented this will:

  • … weaken NE base early to mid game base defense overall and make alot of unfun onesided death push scenarios even more onesided. Some examples that come to my mind - sadly a long list already…
    ** all sorts of cheesy tower rushes
    ** Orcs Fs + throw away mass grunts until defenders moonwell dry into tower rush
    ** NEs Potm Hunts harass until defenders moonwells dry into ap push
    ** UDs 8:30 frenzy push
    ** UDs 9:30 frenzy destroyer push
    ** UDs 10:xx destroyer push after throwing away ghouls in NE base to kill whisps
    This cannot be intented - or am I playing a different game xD?

  • … will weaken early to mid game offensive capabilties - maybe this was wanted because of early game strength of immo vs HU?

  • … be a huge nerf vs Orc in meta gameplay at any stage of the game cause on current meta NE fights until no more healing potions and moonwell juice available. Big Healing Potions and Heal Stone drops affect the matchup alot - just to point out how big of an impact avaiable HP for elf has. Considering all the buffs for orc in the same patch and changes to ring of protection nerfs. This makes 5 changes in the same direction - erf. This seems to make no sense. Is this intended?

Running the numbers of how much hp / mana must be done first to judge in the end how much it affects the matchups. But the fact that moonwell juice is even touched doenst make sense to me as its just a straight nerf to aspect of NE race.

Regards


PS: My wish for future patches: when doing balance changes please address known game issues.

Some actual issues in the game on current live patch:
* DH is really strong **with rings** especially vs HU - just do an analysis how much ring dropped / bought affect winrates for DH first games.
* UD timing pushes vs NE when both sides play close to perfect are deadly to NE close to 100% of the time
* HU tier 3 overtuned to the point that once HU tier 3 reaches even supply numbers there is no more counterplay
* HU players seem to be unhappy players - maybe they are depressed cause all they do is babysit their economy in most matchups. Maybe they need some fun interactions in early game. New Hero that makes it fun to defend peasants :D?
4 Likes
386

It’s great to know post 1.26:

  1. UD has fast expand
  2. Orc has mirror image and serpent wards
  3. HU has rifle man and arcane tower that saps every mana in the game.

But we want to keep reverting Elf closer to 1.26 while every other race plays in 1.35.

Can’t wait for UD to completely dominate Elf and have double % imbalance.
7.3% not bad enough? Make it closer to 11% please.
Maybe listen to Grubby and make the matchup closer to 20% imbalance in favor of UD at some point in the near future.

I love how even grunts have more HP at tier 2 and so forth. And fortified orc towers exist at tier 2.
And AoWar got nerfed since 1.26 which is a nerf to NE defensive damage.

2 Likes
387 
The Elf heroes, few units and buildings need buff and rework.
  1. Demon Hunter: return +1 agility.
    Evasion: miss chance increase from 10/20/30 to 15/25/30.
  2. Keeper of the Grove: Keeper of the Grove base Intelligence return from 18 to 19 and Entangling Roots cast range on 700 with lvl 2. Increased treants damage base from 14 to 16. Thorns aura also work equally against melee units as well as long-range units.
  3. Priestess of the Moon: Buff agility from 19 to 20. Owls scouts rework and buff and base attack cooldown reduced from 2.33 to 2.00.
  4. Warden: Buff agility and intelligence from 20 to 21 and 16 to 17 accordingly. Fan of knifes damage per target from 75/125/190 to 85/135/200.

Buff hp for wisps and back for them mana lose to units heroes from 40 to 45 and hp from 120 to 130. Was buff hp for peons, acolytes and peasants so please buff hp for wisps too.

                             So now about units.

Dryads: Bring back Abolish Magic damage against summoned units 300 and buff mana regen. Reduce the experience gain Dryads from Level 3 (60xp) to Level 2 (40 xp

Mountain Giant: Make it so that produce MG’s without shop. Also give for Mountain Giants Resistant Skin or Hardened Skin default and Mountain Giant supply reduced from 7 back to 6. Recuced for mgs from 14 to 7 second cooldown taunts. Harderen skin buff from 8 to 10 armor.

Chimaera: also movement speed return from 250 to 270.

Now about the buildings: Tree of lifes buff Nature’s Blessing Armor Bonus on +2.
Nature blessing upgrade cost reduce from 150 gold 200 wood to 100 gold and 150 wood.
Moon well: moon wells no need nerf because NE will be weakest race ever stop lession to moba player and other whiners.

3 Likes